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Thread: Joyce Meyer - Theology Concerns?

  1. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Scripture is clear that he suffered God's wrath and death in his soul both on the cross and in hell.


    Did Jesus go to hell immediately at death?
    How long was he there?
    How exactly did he suffer God's wrath in his soul in hell?
    What was the relevance of suffering God's wrath in his soul as far as our atonement and why didn't Jesus make it part of the communion celebration/remembrance?

    Can you exegete the below verses from the Messianic passage in Isaiah which clearly links the 'suffering of his soul' to his earthly suffering
    Why isn't his soul suffering in hell under God's wrath mentioned in this passage?

    All 3 verses below link his terrible soul suffering as part of the 'wrath of God' while still on earth

    Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
    Isa 53:11 - He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
    Isa 53:12 - Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

  2. #212
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Did Jesus go to hell immediately at death?

    @@@Yes, he immediately went to Hades.

    How long was he there?

    @@@Until he resurrected.

    How exactly did he suffer God's wrath in his soul in hell?

    @@@Because God still saw sin when he saw Jesus and His holy wrath was there.

    What was the relevance of suffering God's wrath in his soul as far as our atonement and why didn't Jesus make it part of the communion celebration/remembrance?

    @@@There's no mention of God's wrath in the communion but his soul being poured out unto death is. According to Jewish thinking the soul is in the blood so when his blood was shed unto death then his soul was shed unto death.

    Can you exegete the below verses from the Messianic passage in Isaiah which clearly links the 'suffering of his soul' to his earthly suffering
    Why isn't his soul suffering in hell under God's wrath mentioned in this passage?

    @@@God's wrath which is different to being overwhelmed by death isn't mentioned in the passage. His soul being poured out unto death is mentioned.


    All 3 verses below link his terrible soul suffering as part of the 'wrath of God' while still on earth

    @@@God's wrath expresses itself directly, it doesn't express itself through one of the devil's devices. Zephaniah 1 talks about God's wrath over sin, it's direct and not indirect. Holy fire, not unholy fire. God's wrath is not an intrinsic part of Hades, for every human being it is a part of the future judgment - Romans 2:5

    Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
    Isa 53:11 - He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.
    Isa 53:12 - Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors.

    @@@His soul being poured out unto death is mentioned in the passage and that started on the cross, arguably already in the garden of Gethsemane. The passage says nothing about when it ended. It says nothing about it ending at the moment of Jesus' death. Other passages state clearly that it continued until he was resurrected. Acts 2:24 mentions birth pangs and birth pangs are extremely painful without pain medication. Painful enough that they are a major concern in Genesis :

    Gen 3:16 To the woman He said: “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you.”

    I suggest you go ahead and prove from scripture that Jesus' soul being poured out unto death ended when he actually died. That is completely counter intuitive, one would think that it came into final fruitition when he actually died, that that was what his soul was poured out unto.
    .

  3. #213
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The sin offering :

    Lev 16:15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.

    Which is explained in the next chapter :

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

    The word translated life is nephesh and it's translated as soul in over 60 percent of the 750 occurrences in the KJV. It means soul, self, essential life.

    Shedding some of the goat or bull's blood and then sprinkling it on the mercy seat was not sufficient for atonement. Then the soul would remain in the animal. It had to be killed first, which implied that its blood was poured out unto death and therefore its soul was poured out unto death along with the blood. Only its physical death completed the act of pouring out its soul unto death and now its soul was fully dead, along with its body. The blood of the dead animal represented its dead soul that was poured out along with the blood.

    This becomes a picture of the sin offering of Jesus. His blood was shed on the cross and his soul unto death along with. His soul being poured out unto death was completed by his physical death and his soul was now fully dead. The dead animal's soul would return to God who gave it and the picture ends there but the soul of the dead Jesus descended into Hades and remained there in the birthpangs of death until God resurrected him because He was satisfied that Jesus had died completely to sin.

    Just as there is no atonement in the OT without the animal dying so that its soul is now fully poured out unto death along with the blood, there is also no atonement in the NT without Jesus dying physically so that his soul was now fully poured out unto death along with his blood. One may argue that he experienced this death in his soul already in the garden of Gethsemane and certainly on the cross but it was complete only after he was physically dead and in Hades.

    There is also the question of what the scapegoat sent out into the wilderness represents. That is mentioned in the same passage, Lev 16. It may be that it merely represents Jesus being tormented by men and demons in "the place of the skull" which is Calvary. That happened outside the city gates, just like the goat was sent outside the camp. See Hebrews 13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Can you please tell us point by point starting with Jesus' death what the sequence of events were

    1. Jesus dies and his spirit leaves his body
    2. Jesus Preaches the gospel to the dead saints-1 Peter 4:6
    3. OT Saints were seen resurrected and walking the streets.
    4. Jesus Preaches the gospel to the dead condemned-1 Peter 3:18-20
    5. Jesus wins the keys to death and Hades-Revelation 1:18
    6. Jesus is resurrected

    Can you now fill in the blanks
    I filled in the blanks best I could with NT scriptures, at least to the best of my understanding. Anything else to me is a stretch.

    Also, to say that He suffered the wrath of God I do not think is correct Colonel. The wrath of God is yet to come. I cannot think of any scripture that says that Jesus suffered the wrath of God. The wages of sin is death. There is wrath to come, make no mistake. But it wasn't poured out on Jesus. Unless you can show me a scripture I am missing that says it was I cannot agree with that statement Colonel.

  6. #215
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    I filled in the blanks best I could with NT scriptures, at least to the best of my understanding. Anything else to me is a stretch.

    Also, to say that He suffered the wrath of God I do not think is correct Colonel. The wrath of God is yet to come. I cannot think of any scripture that says that Jesus suffered the wrath of God. The wages of sin is death. There is wrath to come, make no mistake. But it wasn't poured out on Jesus. Unless you can show me a scripture I am missing that says it was I cannot agree with that statement Colonel.
    God has poured out his wrath many times, including here :

    Deut 29:23 ‘The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in His anger and His wrath.’

    When God pours out his wrath on judgment day it's over those who have not been redeemed. The reason why the others are redeemed from that wrath is that his wrath over their sin has been stilled by Jesus' sacrifice. One could imagine that Jesus managed to still it without making himself the object of the wrath that was due to us but the Bible says otherwise :

    2 Cor 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

    Which means that God treated him as if he had been sin and for sin He has nothing but wrath.

    When Isaiah 53 says the following :

    "And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."
    "And He bore the sin of many"

    What exactly do you think that implies ? Some JDSers would say that Jesus literally became sin, I think it rather means that God treated him as if he had been our sin. Which may be interpreted as that he was clothed in our sin and thereby he suffered God's wrath over our sin.

  7. #216
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    I believe that God's wrath for sin is yet to come, according to the word. I see no biblical reference of Jesus suffering the wrath of God. He suffered much. He was beaten beyond recognition, bruised, battered, mocked, spat upon, we reckoned Him smitten by God. He was cursed, hung upon a tree, and then He committed His Spirit to the Father and breathed His last. I do not find a scripture that says that the Father poured out His wrath upon Him though. Can you please show it to me?

  8. #217
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    I believe that God's wrath for sin is yet to come, according to the word. I see no biblical reference of Jesus suffering the wrath of God. He suffered much. He was beaten beyond recognition, bruised, battered, mocked, spat upon, we reckoned Him smitten by God. He was cursed, hung upon a tree, and then He committed His Spirit to the Father and breathed His last. I do not find a scripture that says that the Father poured out His wrath upon Him though. Can you please show it to me?
    Noone except Jesus has suffered the penalty for sin yet.

    You just ignored everything I said in the previous post. How about you answer the questions in my post ?

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Noone except Jesus has suffered the penalty for sin yet.

    You just ignored everything I said in the previous post. How about you answer the questions in my post ?
    Haven't forgotten you bro, just extremely busy. Will get back to this topic as soon as I can. I enjoy it. God bless!

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