Thread: Joyce Meyer - Theology Concerns?

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

There is no question that Isaiah 53 (The Suffering Servant Prophecy) is a Messianic prophecy. No one here will say different. And Psalm 69 also says that they gave Him vinegar for His thirst. And we can see these things came to pass. However, I don't see 88 and 116 fitting into the mold. They fit into speculation of what COULD have happened in hades, but not into anything that we know for sure happened anywhere.

We may speculate whether Peter quoted Psalm 18 or 116 or both, in Acts 2:24. Since he didn't specify it any further, I'd say both and that he was addressing a Messianic theme running through the Psalms where the psalmists exaggerated their own experiences and, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, turned their psalms into descriptions of the ultimate ordeal, that of the Messiah being foreshadowed. David certainly exaggerated his experiences wildly when he wrote Psalm 22 and we know that that turned into a description of Jesus' ordeal on the cross.

According to one of the commentaries on Acts 2:24 that I quoted, the Greek wording that Luke used when he wrote down Peter's sermon on Pentecost reveals that he was quoting the 200 BC Greek Septuagint translation of the Old Testament, specifically either Psalm 18:5 or Psalm 116:3 or both. His choice of wording is not coincidental because the Septuagint's rendering of the original Hebrew word is controversial. I consider that conclusive proof that Luke saw Peter's statement as taken from one or both of those psalms, making them Messianic. Since Peter's sermon on Pentecost is a very central passage in the New Testament and also fairly short, it seems likely that Luke knew for a fact that Peter was quoting those psalms and that he isn't merely guessing that he was. To quote the Septuagint is common among the NT writers, they also have Jesus quoting the Septuagint. Whether he actually did or he did not, the NT writers used the Septuagint to word his OT quotes in Greek.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Cardinal TT will have us believe that Jonah chapter 2 can be ignored as Messianic because the exact same content isn't also found elsewhere in the New Testament and that is ridiculous..

Colonel
Please don't make things up about me because I disagree with you ..what you said above is false

Jonah does have Messianic context - I disagree how much can be seen as Messianic as do many scholars
A Psalm may have Messianic verses doesn't mean the whole Psalm can be used to describe the story of Jesus in hell

I have said it before but it needs clarification. You go down a certain path to justify your interpretation but you dismiss relevant NT verses and grab OT passages and make extraordinary claims to justify your views. That is why you are incorrectly interpreting scripture in this instance


Acts 2:24 - whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
If Jesus was in hell it would say loosed the pains of hell - notice it uses the words death not hell

Jesus died. It was never the perfect will of God for man's spirit to be separated and in hades.
Even in the good part of hades the righteous knew they were dead and also knew they were not able to fully glorify God.

Greek words for pains is related to child birth or anguish - it is not related to suffering under God's wrath or satans torment as punishment for mans sins

The righteous man's soul was in this state of internal anguish knowing they needed a saviour who would deliver them from death - they were still under the 'dominion of death' even in the good part of hades

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

Colonel
Don't make things up about me because I disagree with you ..what you said above is false

You'll say that whenever my rendition isn't to your liking. I'm not making things up and I could as well return the accusation in relation to the next part of your post. Enough said.

Originally Posted by Colonel

As far as I can tell from everything you have said, you choose to ignore the Messianic OT passages quoted in the NT in relation to Jesus' time in death to the point (or degree) where their Messianic content becomes meaningless and can, for all practical purposes, be ignored.

That is a more explanatory comment on what I think of your way of treating NT references to Messianic passages in the OT, Cardinal TT. Go ahead attack my shorter version in that later post all you want, I really don't care. I have no idea how anything you have said so far differs from my rendition above.

Originally Posted by Colonel

You'll say that whenever my rendition isn't to your liking. I'm not making things up and I could as well return the accusation in relation to the next part of your post. Enough said.

I quoted you directly from your comment about me in regard to Jonah - It is clear in black and white what you wrote and I never said that Jonah wasn't messianic

Ezekial doesn't believe all of Jonah is Messianic. Majority of scholars don't believe all of Jonah is Messianic
Are you saying Ezekial and scholars reject Jonah as Messianic because they don't accept all your premise?

Originally Posted by Colonel

That is a more explanatory comment on what I think of your way of treating NT references to Messianic passages in the OT, Cardinal TT. Go ahead attack my shorter version in that later post all you want, I really don't care. I have no idea how anything you have said so far differs from my rendition above.

Can you please tell us point by point starting with Jesus' death what the sequence of events were

1. Jesus dies and his spirit leaves his body
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Jesus is resurrected

Can you now fill in the blanks

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

I quoted you directly from your comment about me in regard to Jonah - It is clear in black and white what you wrote and I never said that Jonah wasn't messianic

Ezekial doesn't believe all of Jonah is Messianic. Majority of scholars don't believe all of Jonah is Messianic
Are you saying we all reject Jonah as Messianic?

I said "ignored as messianic" not "rejected as messianic". It was simply a shorter version of the previous post on the matter.

As far as I can tell from everything you have said, you choose to ignore the Messianic OT passages quoted in the NT in relation to Jesus' time in death to the point (or degree) where their Messianic content becomes meaningless and can, for all practical purposes, be ignored.

We might compare to Ezekiel 33 who accepts that Jonah's death is Messianic to the point or degree that it can be compared to Jesus' time in Hades but only in terms of its duration. Which means that the content of Jonah chapter 2 can, for all practical purposes, be ignored.

This is how I interpret what both of you actually say and keep saying. Which is completely different to when for instance you and an other poster decided that I didn't believe in hell, based on nothing whatsoever that I have ever said. The other poster keeps telling me that I believe in OSAS, once again based on nothing whatsoever that I have ever said. By now I've decided that I will simply have to live with the fact that he can keep doing that and get away with it.

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

Can you please tell us point by point starting with Jesus' death what the sequence of events were

1. Jesus dies and his spirit leaves his body
2.
3.
4.
5.
6. Jesus is resurrected

Can you now fill in the blanks

This post is a good summation.

https://livingfaithforum.com/showthr...ll=1#post88754