Thread: Joyce Meyer - Theology Concerns?

The resurrection is vital but the context of the discussion is the suffering of Jesus and whether he was tormented in hell by satan or some other way as part of the atonement.

You can't use the resurrection to deflect from what the sufferering/death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled.
The bible says clearly that the Veil was rent at his death not at the resurrection.

The resurrection puts a seal and shows his final victory over death...but without Jesus suffering and dying then the what is the point of the resurrection.

We can debate and go around in circles forever because if Jesus didn't ascend to the Father and sit at the right hand of God then the resurrection doesn't count.

The point is what is the FOUNDATION for our atonement/redemption ....it is the Cross

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

The resurrection is vital but the context of the discussion is the suffering of Jesus and whether he was tormented in hell by satan or some other way as part of the atonement.

You can't use the resurrection to deflect from what the sufferering/death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled.
The bible says clearly that the Veil was rent at his death not at the resurrection.

The resurrection puts a seal and shows his final victory over death...but without Jesus suffering and dying then the what is the point of the resurrection.

We can debate and go around in circles forever because if Jesus didn't ascend to the Father but then he doesn't sit at the right hand if God.

The point is what is the FOUNDATION for our atonement/redemption ....it is the Cross

Romans 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

You cannot divide them up and state that the former was sufficient and the latter a formality.

If anyone here is speculating in order to get to his desired result, it is you.

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

That could not be any clearer.

Originally Posted by Colonel

1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins!
18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.

That could not be any clearer.

All you are doing is going round in circles and arguing for arguing sake.

I can do the same thing. If Jesus didn't ascend then the resurrection was pointless.

Why not try to answer the many powerful verses about Jesus earthly suffering and death instead of using the resurrection as some sort of gotcha moment.

It's impossible to have a proper theological debate if you ignore the basis of the discussion and bring in the resurrection only to deflect.

Can't see the point of continuing the discussion

Allright.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

I think you two may be on the same page but not understanding each other? Colonel, do you actually believe that Jesus was tortured in Hades? Because your past several posts have been about the resurrection, which we all agree on.


As I was thinking about this last night I had a couple of thoughts. First of all, this very important scripture:

So, this brings a question to those of you who would say that He was tortured in Hades:

Who did Jesus commit His spirit to?

a)The Father b)satan c) both

And then another question for you:

According to scripture, the wages of sin is:

a) Death
b) Torture in Hades
c) Both

Define "tortured". Because that is what half the discussion has been about. The point to the resurrection was to resurrect him out of something and what was that ?

One of the most fundamental messages on the atonement is the sermon in Acts 2, it says that he was resurrected out of "the pangs of death that could not hold him". That basically contains what I believe about that. It was "the prince of life" (as one verse says) that was held by death, not "the lowest worm" as Kenneth Copeland has stated. If that answers the question.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

This is a great discussion brothers. We just need to slow down and not get frustrated with each other. I totally enjoy these discussions that we have had over the years. They are probably my favorite part of hanging out with y'all. Iron sharpens iron. These are the discussions that keep us (or at least me) thinking on the scriptures and NT doctrines. Why do we believe what we believe? We should be able to do this and enjoy it, even when we don't come into agreement with each other on every point. I love and respect you guys. To me this is like taking a big old chew of beef jerky and chewing on it and just enjoying the flavor while it lasts.

It's difficult to continue a discussion when the resurrection is used as a 'gotcha' point instead of discussing what Jesus suffered and if it continued in hell.

But go for it Zeke ....
maybe Colonel will answer the majority of verses that are about Jesus earthly suffering and death instead of just making statements and picking a verse to over ride the bulk of scripture