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Thread: What is Calvinism Really About?

  1. #1

    What is Calvinism Really About?

    As I read church history, I see how Calvin was the first really extensive "systematizer" of Bible truths after the Reformation. At one level, it is to be appreciated - a lot of good effort and work there.

    YET, speaking to and listening to Calvinists on their own websites over the last month (re-sniffing the environment), I sense this fixation on certain things that seem extremely unbalanced to me.

    WHY do so many Calvinists spend, like 90% of their time hyper-analyzing the mechanics of a singular, sub-picosecond moment of spiritual regeneration? Faith first vs. regeneration first. Huge amounts of time are spend trying to justify why the ONLY way regeneration happens is God deciding who gets saved-or not, and every slightest possibility of man having a choice (by God's prevenient grace) denigrates God's glory. Really?

    It seems such a waste of time to focus on all that stuff like supralapsarianism, etc. Even in my old Brethren Bible Study, all the break times were about "analyzing predestination."

    My Point: Calvinism should be about MANY THINGS in the Christian life, not just the regeneration analysis. Do ya think God is going to give you a supralapsarian theology quiz when you die?

    Nope, He's going to ask you if you KNEW GOD.
    He's going to ask you if you did what you were called to do, loving God and your neighbor, working out your salvation - practical things like that.

    My dollar bet is that, if I said, "I had all my "doctrine-of-decrees" 100% correct and rebuked all those with bad doctrine" is not going to make much impression.

    Have any here experienced a "balanced" Calvinist group, that had many other aspects of practical Christian activity, and didn't spend so much time theorizing?
    Last edited by Jonathan david; 08-04-2018 at 08:31 PM.

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  3. #2
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Calvinism : Regeneration precedes faith

    Wesley-Arminianism : Illumination/conviction precedes faith precedes regeneration

    John 12:36 "While you have the light (illumination/conviction) believe in the light (faith) so that you may become sons of light (regeneration)"

    It really is that simple. God starts the process but he doesn't finish it until after a choice to believe has been made.

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  5. #3
    well.. since I am Reformed (yes, there are many sub-groups, just like every other doctrinal system) I can say, yes, I know lots and lots of Calvinst/Reformed people who are balanced.
    I also know many who make me crazy because they're not.
    Gee, just like the rest of the Church.

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  7. #4
    Faith first vs. regeneration first.
    I lurk at a Baptist forum and, this seems to be the biggest point of discussion.

  8. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by curly sue View Post
    I lurk at a Baptist forum and, this seems to be the biggest point of discussion.
    Is a laughable case of overthinking something to be absolutely sure it is exact to your theology. Tragically sad.

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  10. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    well.. since I am Reformed (yes, there are many sub-groups, just like every other doctrinal system) I can say, yes, I know lots and lots of Calvinst/Reformed people who are balanced.
    I also know many who make me crazy because they're not.
    Gee, just like the rest of the Church.
    Well, I think you are one of the nice Calvinists :)

    It just bugs me how routinely degrading many often get with other non-TULIP points of view - as though TULIP is THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE. Any variance is pollution, compromise, rejection of God's sovereignty.

    Good grief, I'm glad these HARDLINERS have no enforceable power to enforce ecclisastical punishment on folk for not believing their perfect way.

  11. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Calvinism : Regeneration precedes faith

    Wesley-Arminianism : Illumination/conviction precedes faith precedes regeneration

    John 12:36 "While you have the light (illumination/conviction) believe in the light (faith) so that you may become sons of light (regeneration)"

    It really is that simple. God starts the process but he doesn't finish it until after a choice to believe has been made.
    John 12:36, that's a good verse for prevenient grace.

  12. #8
    Balance is being able to read Wesley and Whitefield, Edwards and Finney, Piper (or MacArthur) and Ravenhill, and get something valuable out of them all. (I qualify).

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  14. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    Well, I think you are one of the nice Calvinists :)

    It just bugs me how routinely degrading many often get with other non-TULIP points of view - as though TULIP is THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE. Any variance is pollution, compromise, rejection of God's sovereignty.

    Good grief, I'm glad these HARDLINERS have no enforceable power to enforce ecclisastical punishment on folk for not believing their perfect way.
    Well, some of the folks I know talk about "cage stage" which, if I read it right, is when you're super zealous.. kind of like new believers. (You've met them I'm sure.. mine was in relation to cult evangelism.. I couldn't understand why that was THE most important thing to EVERYbody.. I laugh at it now..)

    But, I run into the same mindset in other doctrinal groups too..

    I mean, don't we ALL think our's in the correct and most acceptable interpretation?

    As for the Which Comes First, it is a seminal discussion. How you view that colors every other doctrinal question.

    and it wholly forms your view of God's sovereignty.

    I know people have hurled the HERETIC thing at me.. eh.. I really don't care. I don't answer to anyone but God.

    what I DO know is being ugly isn't going to make any progress towards reasonable discussion or any persuasion. I'm all about disagreeing agreeably. I'm glad people kindly challenged me.. I had a paradigm shift and I'm glad for it. No firewords, no bashing, none of that.. it was passionate discussion -- on my part as well. We gave each other stuff to think about. I'm wholly good with that.

    But, I do get fired up.. yup, I surely do, when people try to tell me what I believe instead of ask me.

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  16. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    Well, some of the folks I know talk about "cage stage" which, if I read it right, is when you're super zealous.. kind of like new believers. (You've met them I'm sure.. mine was in relation to cult evangelism.. I couldn't understand why that was THE most important thing to EVERYbody.. I laugh at it now..)

    But, I run into the same mindset in other doctrinal groups too..

    I mean, don't we ALL think our's in the correct and most acceptable interpretation?

    As for the Which Comes First, it is a seminal discussion. How you view that colors every other doctrinal question.

    and it wholly forms your view of God's sovereignty.

    I know people have hurled the HERETIC thing at me.. eh.. I really don't care. I don't answer to anyone but God.

    what I DO know is being ugly isn't going to make any progress towards reasonable discussion or any persuasion. I'm all about disagreeing agreeably. I'm glad people kindly challenged me.. I had a paradigm shift and I'm glad for it. No firewords, no bashing, none of that.. it was passionate discussion -- on my part as well. We gave each other stuff to think about. I'm wholly good with that.

    But, I do get fired up.. yup, I surely do, when people try to tell me what I believe instead of ask me.
    Well, that's the whole deal that bugs me - about disagreeing agreeably. I remember in the 80s, I was in a Christian band, with Charismatics and Calvinists - and it was all cool. We RESPECTED each other and ACCEPTED that we thought differently, but we knew our primary bond was our FAITH IN CHRIST.

    Then certain people started writing anti-Charismatic books, which did a lot to create a hostile environment for Charismatics. I was a preferred Calvinist then, but even I viewed the anti-Charismatic sentiment with suspicion and skepticism. I had the wherewithal to know that criticism is often presumptuous and unfair. I KNEW Charismatics, and saw they had something in the spirit that I could learn from.

    My prevailing thought was "there are answers to these criticisms", and I'm not going to let disagreements to poison the environment. You should be able to have a cup of coffee and enjoy a "philosophical" discussion with anybody - that's my approach.
    Last edited by Jonathan david; 08-05-2018 at 12:04 PM.

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