Thread: A question of power

There's been a lot of talk about correct doctrine here lately and that is good and sound. But the Bible talks about other things as distinguishing a sound believer from the not so sound one. Walking godly is one thing and that will be according to correct doctrine but there is more than that. This is going to sound like Crazy Charismatic Heaven (is that a forum somewhere ?) but it's not meant to be in discord with the other two components. It's all in the letters to the Corinthians :

1 Cor 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Note that the word translated as sign means "miraculous sign", the kind that Herod wanted Jesus to show him when Pilate sent him to him. They want wisdom and signs, they get the foolishness of the cross and out of that Christ the wisdom and power of God. The next chapter :

1 Cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

The foolisness and simplicity of the message of Jesus being the Christ and then him crucified demonstrated in Spirit and in power resulted in their faith resting on the power of God.

He goes on to talk about how some of them are puffed up, thinking that they are something and also cleaving to various teachers (Paul, Apollos, Peter) that they think are something. They are wise and strong whereas the apostles seem foolish with what they preach and weak according to the flesh, compared to them.

1 Cor 4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power

They would have a lot of wise words for him and recommendations for themselves (like we see in 2 John and 3 John) but Paul wanted to know their power. He goes on to state that God's kingdom is not in word but in power. That is such an earth shattering and "crazy charismatic" statement, at least at face value. Note that the word translated as "power" is dynamis, the same single word translated as "power to work miracles" three times in 1 Cor 12. "miraculous power".

2 Cor 13:2 I have told you before, and foretell as if I were present the second time, and now being absent I write to those who have sinned before, and to all the rest, that if I come again I will not spare— 3 since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you. 4 For though He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, but we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you.
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10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.

More demonstrations of Spirit and power by the sound of it. This time as "proof of Christ speaking in me" and stating that "we shall live with Him by the power of God toward you"

So not only does he request that they show their power rather than their wise words but in the next letter he talks about demonstrating God's power as a sign of Christ speaking through him. This time to them as Christians.

Since this is a sub-forum for questions and answers, here is the question :

"What do you think that all this means"

The Corinthians were Greeks of course, wisdom seekers by culture. The word Greek is used mainly in Romans, Corinthians and Galatians.

I think you have a valid point on this..one can look really good in action and yet have no power of the Spirit working...

But there are variations of power...for instance hearing His voice, receiving His wisdom...even speaking or 'ministering to others' in that wisdom while not necessarily recognizing it as HIM...at least not in the chills and thrills way...

There is a form of godliness that accompanies strong religious behavior..

It is a dangerous place to become so knowledgeable that we mistake that for relationship or the voice of the Spirit...

Remember that he is talking specifically to the Corinthians who were Greeks. "Greeks seek wisdom, the message of the cross is foolishness to them"

There are no letters that are as full of teaching on the cross in relation to serving God as 1st and 2nd Corinthians. So I'm thinking that they had a tendency to outdo each other in eloquent wisdom and with little connection to the cross and being crucified to this world. That the super-apostles were the same, they had credentials and wisdom. They were all puffed up because their wisdom and eloquence was their own, their credentials were according to the flesh (Paul could beat them at that but did not care about that)

Paul goes ultra-Charismatic on them, though in a useful direction and asks for their miraculous power. He even adds that the kingdom of God is not in words but in power. Doctrines can sometimes revolve around words and wording and people nitpick about that instead of paying attention to deeper content and spirit. Power is connected to spirit, intention, heart. To correct doctrine as well but then correct doctrine is more than correct wording or correct definition.

The way he talks about power tells me that the power of God was more tangibly present at times than anything we know about. That they had a more concrete relation to it in some way. There's a lot of depth in stuff in the epistles that seems a bit crazy to us.

In a sense Paul was doing the exact opposite of what ultra-charismatics today need to be taught. Todd White has this thing about teaching that one can move in the miraculous while not living right. He gives an example where someone moved very accurately in words of knowledge and then the person was caught watching porn on his phone. He talks about being a witness in terms of conduct and purity but there is a deeper current as well of being able to sustain that kind of anointing over time and keeping with an unbroken relationship with God. Miracles and sin might exist at the same time for a while, but not forever.

So he asks the power hotshot for conduct and purity. Paul asked the wisdom buff for power. They were definitely believers in a full gospel but they still needed to hear that. Maybe they thought that they had enough power and needed to concentrate on other things. It's all about balance and creating balance. As long as one doesn't hold back the full counsel of God.

In our day and age Paul might have asked us for our power, wisdom, conduct AND purity. It would have been interesting to see what he would have placed the most emphasis on.

2 Cor 10:1 Now I, Paul, myself am pleading with you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ—who in presence am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you. 2 But I beg you that when I am present I may not be bold with that confidence by which I intend to be bold against some, who think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. 3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.

Verses 4-5 are very popular and are used a lot about renewing the mind and preaching the Word to renew the mind. The local context is a situation where the Corinthians question Paul's authority in his absence because the "super-apostles" who are with them seem wiser and more eloquent in their speech and have lots of credentials. Paul is talking about his upcoming visit to the Corinthian church where he will set things straight. Verse 6 is interesting. It's often read as if that is something they are going to do, use their authority over the church to impose some form of punishment on some people. In the previous letter he talked about punishing sin by excluding someone from fellowship, which is a physical measure. He also talked about joining with them in the power of the Spirit from hundreds of miles away to "hand him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh". Verse 6 points back to verse 4.

"For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for.......punishing all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled"

That's a power thing, not merely a deed thing. The desired situation seems to be that most of them have been brought to obedience by the preaching of the Word and then the same power moves to punish the disobedience among the few who have not repented. Two verses later he says :

8 For even if I should boast somewhat more about our authority, which the Lord gave us for edification and not for your destruction, I shall not be ashamed

He says the same thing at the end of the letter :

13:10 Therefore I write these things being absent, lest being present I should use sharpness, according to the authority which the Lord has given me for edification and not for destruction.

In the previous letter he talked about "handing him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh" which implies using authority for destruction rather than edification. But the goal was to bring him back again so that his soul would be saved in the end, so the end goal was still edification. So the theme seems to be that he might employ his authority to move in God's power in a seemingly destructive manner but edification is the end goal. In Acts 5 we see a situation where there seems to be nothing more than destruction being wielded, two people who have blasphemed the Spirit drop dead in the presence of the Holy Spirit and that is it.

Paul had to counter the Corinthians' impression of the "super-apostles" as being wiser and more eloquent and having more credentials. He does so by countering that the gospel is a message of foolishness to those who simply seek wisdom but still contains God's wisdom. He lists his credentials, including in terms of his sufferings for the gospel (one would assume that the super-apostles didn't suffer much for their doings and teachings) but those don't really matter to him. It comes down to the power that the "foolish" gospel message produces and that power being capable of promoting the things of the kingdom of God, practically embodying those things, including to move authoratively and even destructively - at least in the short term.

Never down-play doctrine as of primary importance.

Originally Posted by Nikos

Never down-play doctrine as of primary importance.

Nikos, that really doesn't make any sense in relation to the thread. It's doctrine + conduct + power.

The above posts may sound like "doom and gloom" or a bit like the old covenant. We also have :

Heb 12:18 For you have not come to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and darkness and tempest, 19 and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20 (For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21 And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

But then :

25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape who refused Him who spoke on earth, much more shall we not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from heaven, 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, “Yet once more I shake not only the earth, but also heaven.” 27 Now this, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of those things that are being shaken, as of things that are made, that the things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Originally Posted by Colonel

In a sense Paul was doing the exact opposite of what ultra-charismatics today need to be taught. Todd White has this thing about teaching that one can move in the miraculous while not living right. He gives an example where someone moved very accurately in words of knowledge and then the person was caught watching porn on his phone. He talks about being a witness in terms of conduct and purity but there is a deeper current as well of being able to sustain that kind of anointing over time and keeping with an unbroken relationship with God. Miracles and sin might exist at the same time for a while, but not forever.

Here's an example of that, from the Bible :

Judges 16:1 Now Samson went to Gaza and saw a harlot there, and went in to her. 2 When the Gazites were told, "Samson has come here!" they surrounded the place and lay in wait for him all night at the gate of the city. They were quiet all night, saying, "In the morning, when it is daylight, we will kill him." 3 And Samson lay low till midnight; then he arose at midnight, took hold of the doors of the gate of the city and the two gateposts, pulled them up, bar and all, put them on his shoulders, and carried them to the top of the hill that faces Hebron.

He sleeps with a prostitute but the anointing is still over him with miraculous effects.

16:4 Afterward it happened that he loved a woman in the Valley of Sorek, whose name was Delilah. 5 And the lords of the Philistines came up to her and said to her, "Entice him, and find out where his great strength lies, and by what means we may overpower him, that we may bind him to afflict him; and every one of us will give you eleven hundred pieces of silver."

He keeps living in sin and the anointing stays with him for a time. In the end Samson tells her something that he thinks has something to do with it, arrogantly thinking that the anointing won't depart from him anyway. He tells her about his Nazirite vow and basically lets Delilah remove his long hair thinking that it doesn't really matter. Which it technically didn't. If he hadn't been living in sin and hadn't been acting arrogantly then removing his hair wouldn't have removed the anointing from him. But that was the last straw in God's eyes :

16:19 Then she lulled him to sleep on her knees, and called for a man and had him shave off the seven locks of his head. Then she began to torment him and his strength left him. 20 And she said, "The Philistines are upon you, Samson!" So he awoke from his sleep, and said, "I will go out as before, at other times, and shake myself free!" But he did not know that the Lord had departed from him.