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Banned
"We could have had different parents??" Can someone explain what the Colonel's saying?
While discussing the idea that biologically if Adam hadn't sinned the children born as grandchildren to Adam would have been different (and still being added to today) and as that genetic makeup would be different to what happened so would the next generation be different and the next etc. such that although there would be people around today none of the people currently around now would exist, you and I would never have existed. (Thank Adam I'm alive)
Well Colonel came back with a couple of quotes about this limiting God and he would have been born anyway.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
I'm clueless. Does God lose the ability to create you and me unless Adam and Eve sins ? Sin-empowered divine omnipotence ? This one is pretty crazy, Oz-man.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
God is the one who gives souls. If they hadn't sinned then I would eventually have been born into a sinless world and everything would have been allright.
So I point out that this is incorrect.
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
... Different gene pool, different people, no you and me. ...
I think an approximate proverb here is "You can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear" which is actually talking about quality, so how about I say "You can't make a tin can out of old newspapers", i.e the output is determined by the input and if our parent's weren't there to give their input then we could never be the output.
But I get back
Originally Posted by
Colonel
That's right, I would merely have had a different body.
And then this which makes no sense to me at all
Originally Posted by
Colonel
The idea that you are your body and if your body is different then you are essentially different belongs to an atheistic world view where there is nothing more than the physical and what science can map out and predict. It also belongs to a cessationist version of Christianity where the spiritual is sufficiently non-present that it can be largely ignored. If you want to be seen as a Pentecostal/Charismatic then I suggest you start talking like one instead of like one who is enamored with something very different.
And finally this
Originally Posted by
Colonel
And exactly why would God be unable to breathe my human spirit into any human body he pleases ?
All the relevant posts (if I ticked the right boxes) are in the next post,
but can anyone explain to me what the Colonel's saying because none of his answers are making sense to me.
Thanks.
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Banned
All the posts
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Farm Truck posted this elsewhere
But if Adam hadn't sinned none of us would be alive and on our way to an eternity in heaven.
Should we maybe thank him instead?
Originally Posted by
Colonel
How is that ?
Originally Posted by
Colonel
I'm clueless. Does God lose the ability to create you and me unless Adam and Eve sins ? Sin-empowered divine omnipotence ? This one is pretty crazy, Oz-man.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
God is the one who gives souls. If they hadn't sinned then I would eventually have been born into a sinless world and everything would have been allright.
I suppose this will turn out to be yet another "secret" sovereign election thread...
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Seriously?
Adam and Eve had multiple kids. Because of sin Abel dies taking his gene's out of the gene pool. Also the sister he would have married now had different children by a different father making those genes different to what they would have been. Also Adam and Eve in the garden would not have been affected by tiredness or lust, two things that would have altered their sex life and probably the children they had.
Also Cain and his wife are sent away so where there would have been cousins marrying this doesn't happen and so again changed the gene mix.
And we have the whole world except Noah and family wiped out again removing 99% of the then gene pool.
Then there was Babel which seperated gene pools.
Then take into account the known and unknown bastards in our ancestory (i.e. people who should have never existed - even Jesus had one of those) and children from marriages after invalid divorces, and populations that exist only because people moved and met as a result of wars etc. there's no way we would have ended up with the population we have today if there was no sin.
If Adam and Eve were still alive (and here) then they would still be having kids (thousands by now) and so adding those initial genes back into the gene pool again making it different from what it is now.
And we wouldn't have gene mutations that cause sickness and sterility and lots of other things, again changing the gene pool.
Different gene pool, different people, no you and me.
"Thanks Adam"
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
????
Originally Posted by
Colonel
That's right, I would merely have had a different body.
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Where does the Bible say that?
Originally Posted by
Colonel
Gal 2:20 "the life I live in this body"
Originally Posted by
Colonel
I could start a campaign where I prove that he's either advocating that God is the author of sin or that we should thank Satan that we exist but I don't really feel like it.
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Galatians 2:20 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
What's that got to do with the sentence "God is the one who gives souls."
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Not at all, just saying that because our genetic makeup (or who we are) is the direct result of our ancestors if our ancestors didn't exist we couldn't exist.
If Adam and Eve didn't sin they may not have had Cain and Abel. Even if they did Abel's genes would have been passed down so from that point on a different set of people would have existed. Also we'd continually have second generation children of Adam and Eve added to the mix making the gene pool different again. And we wouldn't all be descendants of Noah.
If Adam and Eve didn't sin it's mathematically impossible for the population of the world today to include the 8B people we have today, i.e. you and I. We would not exist.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
The soul lives in a body. It will get a new body after that body dies physically. My being and identity is in my spirit and soul, not in my body.
This is like non-Cessationist Christianity 101.
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Full quote as you seem to not understand my question "God is the one who gives souls. If they hadn't sinned then I would eventually have been born into a sinless world and everything would have been allright." (emphasis mine)
How can you have been born if your parents didn't exist?
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Do you understand biology Colonel?
You are a unique combination of genes half coming from your dad and half from your mum. And they too are unique for the same reason and they were and will be the only ones with the genes which came together to create you.
You can't have different parents.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
Depending on definitions within biology you can be seen as a collection of millions of cells that are independent organisms that merely cooperate as in a hive. They shed some, grow some new ones, until there are practically none left that were there to begin with. They reprogram themselves along the way and when they eventually all die, "you" are gone.
But you are not your body. You are a human spirit presently living in a human body that is according to my description above.
Like I said in a post above, this is non-Cessationist Christianity 101.
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
And there I though I was spirit, soul and body (1Thess 5:23).
Cessationism in Christianity is the doctrine that Apostolic gifts ceased with the original twelve apostles.
Sorry but I can't see a link between the gifts of the spirit ceasing and the idea that you could have been born to different parents.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
The idea that you are your body and if your body is different then you are essentially different belongs to an atheistic world view where there is nothing more than the physical and what science can map out and predict. It also belongs to a cessationist version of Christianity where the spiritual is sufficiently non-present that it can be largely ignored. If you want to be seen as a Pentecostal/Charismatic then I suggest you start talking like one instead of like one who is enamored with something very different.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
This is very simple, we need to differentiate between what we are and what we have.
1 Thes 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
we have a spirit, we have a soul, we have a body
2 Peter 2:14 knowing that shortly I must put off my tent, just as our Lord Jesus Christ showed me.
After the body is put off like a tent, we still exist because we are spirits. Spirits who presently dwell in a body.
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
Yes, we are spirits which came into being in conjunction with the body we currently live in but which will die and we'll live without one for a while till we get a new eternal one.
But still, what's this to do with some people thinking that the gifts of the spirit have ceased and the idea that you could have been born to different parents.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
God could have put me in a different body and I would still have been me by identity, just with slightly different faculties in terms of my soul, mind, emotions and body. Your argument and this whole thread makes no sense to a Pentecostal/Charismatic.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
Bookman, have you even read the thread ? As discussed previously, you are not your body, you are your spirit. Your spirit is the same irrespective of who your parents are or what your lineage is.
Originally Posted by
Bookman
Yes. I was getting back to Oz's original notion that had Adam not sinned, none of us would be here. And yet not attributing the fall or the sin of Adam to God.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
And exactly why would God be unable to breathe my human spirit into any human body he pleases ?
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Senior Member
I did not say that I would have been born anyway. I said that God could have breathed my human spirit into any human body he pleased, not that he had to do so.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Colonel
I did not say that I would have been born anyway. I said that God could have breathed my human spirit into any human body he pleased, not that he had to do so.
Does that mean your spirit could be breathed into a female body?
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Cardinal TT
Does that mean your spirit could be breathed into a female body?
I think he could have done that, yes. I think we will remain the same after physical death just fully sanctified. Later we will receive a new glorified body and at that point we might change. Probably not from male to female but possibly into something different.
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Senior Member
Gal 3:28*There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.*29*And if you*are*Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
At the spiritual level, where the Holy Spirit has become one with my spirit, there is neither male nor female. If God had breathed my spirit into a fetus that had grown into a female then I would have also had the corresponding emotions etc. I suppose that verse was a problem to people who were Jews for instance, they would see their Jewishness as integral to who they were and therefore immutable, and being a non-Jew as something inferior. As if God could not have made them a Gentile.
Verse 29 is interesting, it basically declares that I have been grafted into Abraham's lineage and now I have him as a forefather. Not according to the flesh but that is really the point, the specifics of my lineage and birth really don't matter.
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Banned
Originally Posted by
Cardinal TT
Does that mean your spirit could be breathed into a female body?
TT can you throw any light on what this conversation is about? It makes no sense to me.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
FunFromOz
TT can you throw any light on what this conversation is about? It makes no sense to me.
You sound like a troll at the moment. Why don't you just participate in the conversation instead of trying to force posters to discuss things your way ?
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Banned
Originally Posted by
Colonel
You sound like a troll at the moment.
I'm so tempted to respond like (a person who has been called a troll) at the moment as this makes no sense.
For instance above you say "God could have breathed my human spirit into any human body he pleased" and for the fiftyth time I'm asking what are you talking about as that statement makes no sense.
From http://english.stackexchange.com/que...makes-no-sense
"This makes no sense" means that the speaker (or in this case the reader, me) cannot construct a rational argument as to why the particular situation (in this case God breathing spirits into human bodies - except for Adam) should be true or reasonable.
It makes no sense.
If you don't want to enlighten me on what you're talking about OK, but please just say so rather than giving obsecure answers.
Thanks,
FFO
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Senior Member
I've dealt with trolls many times on a Norwegian workout forum that I frequented for years. Some were sociopats, some probably belonged at a psychiatric ward somewhere. Some weren't really trolls, just their behavior or at least their posting style suggested that they could be.
Back to the discussion.
Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The Hebrew word is Nephesh which means soul. Does that apply only to Adam ? Nope.
Job 33:4 (Elihu) The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Eccl 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
To my knowledge there is no verse in the Bible that says that God had to give your human spirit to the fetus that was formed in your mother's womb and that he couldn't have given it to an other fetus in an other womb. Care to find that verse FunFromOz ?
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