Thread: Will everyone be equal in heaven?

Originally Posted by Colonel

Id say getting people saved is more important than rewards. They are also more valuable than rewards. Id rather meet spiritual children in heaven and have no rewards than get rewards for being obedient and seeing no spiritual children in heaven.

Well, of course salvation is the main thing - that's what I basically said above. I prefer to think in composite - the full story with ALL associated factors of the operatives and blessings of the kingdom.

I don't think we disagree here. I am just saying that there is an appropriate place to put the concept of "reward" - I call it integration. Jesus is the one who told us that -- why should I negate the concept because some can abuse it (i.e., look for rewards instead of the Rewarder). We can abuse or mis-emphasize just about every good thing in Scripture.

My main point is really that having spiritual children present in heaven is a greater reward in itself than any other reward could possibly be. Anything else fades in comparison to that. Id rather have one of those than all the treasures of heaven piled up in my new mansion for me to bathe in like Scrooge McDuck.

Nope. There are great rewards that will be reaped in the next age as a result of the quality of our love and service for Jesus here on earth. I have no inclination to post all of the many scriptures on this. Revelations 1-4 is a good starting place. Being in heaven doesn't mean you will be trusted in the next age to rule with Jesus. That's the main problem. People don't see heaven as somewhat of a holding place for the Saints until the next age where a new earth will be built. Man was made for earth, NOT HEAVEN. We are a people obsessed with heaven, instead of understanding that in this age, the quality of our love for Jesus and His ways is being tested and tried for THE NEXT AGE.

It is all LOVE BASED. Not works based.

Originally Posted by CatchyUsername

Nope. There are great rewards that will be reaped in the next age as a result of the quality of our love and service for Jesus here on earth. I have no inclination to post all of the many scriptures on this. Revelations 1-4 is a good starting place. Being in heaven doesn't mean you will be trusted in the next age to rule with Jesus. That's the main problem. People don't see heaven as somewhat of a holding place for the Saints until the next age where a new earth will be built. Man was made for earth, NOT HEAVEN. We are a people obsessed with heaven, instead of understanding that in this age, the quality of our love for Jesus and His ways is being tested and tried for THE NEXT AGE.

It is all LOVE BASED. Not works based.

I see what you mean about rewards and the new earth and new heaven (stars to colonize ?) but where is that stuff about only select believers reigning with Christ ? Revelation mentions overcomers from the great tribulation reigning over the peoples during the millenium whatever that means. But these are the more general scripture :

2 Tim 2:11*This is*a faithful saying:
For if we died with*Him,
We shall also live with*Him.
12*If we endure,
We shall also reign with*Him.
If we deny*Him,
He also will deny us.

The context is salvation and enduring typically means enduring in the faith to the end, dying in the faith.

Rev 22:3*And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
4*They shall see His face, and His name*shall be*on their foreheads.*
5*There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

The above seems to refer to everyone who is redeemed, every servant of God. There is also a more obscure reference to reigning in Rev 5:10 but the language used is the same as here :

Rev 1:5 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,*
6*and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him*be*glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Which is spoken to all the seven churches that are then rebuked, which makes it very general. The idea of reigning doesnt necessarily imply that one has to reign over other people.

Originally Posted by Colonel

My main point is really that having spiritual children present in heaven is a greater reward in itself than any other reward could possibly be. Anything else fades in comparison to that. Id rather have one of those than all the treasures of heaven piled up in my new mansion for me to bathe in like Scrooge McDuck.

Why not enjoy both -- hopefully with no Scrooge McDuck attitude ;)

No, you completely misunderstood what I said.

All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved, meaning, all will be in heaven through faith. I'm talking about people who acted in love and laid down their lives above what other people have done, that they will be entrusted. The key words are, "to those who overcome". There will be millions in heaven who didn't overcome much of anything at all. Their lives did not reflect the gospel of love, but they did trust Jesus for their salvation.

See, people believe that some sort of mystical, magical, thing, happens when we die. Like this magic wand gets waived over us and then, BAM! Our mind gets straight, and we see things for how they really are. But I don't believe that's the case. Matter of fact, Jesus emphasizes over and over and over and over, through the parables in particular, how important it is to steward the affairs of this life....in money, talents, relationships, time, etc......and he who loves most will be rewarded most in the next age because the gospel of the kingdom *IS* the kingdom of LOVE. That's the whole basis of existence. And I'm not talking about "reigning over other people", in the way that you are making it seem. The next age doesn't have any sin attachment or anything at all with a fallen nature, so I think you need to challenge your thinking here. I'm talking about building a new earth and being given stewardship and responsibility over a part of creating a new existence on earth.

Also, this is NOT the Lord, "picking and choosing" favorites. This is about the individual OVERCOMING sin, the world, and the devil, IN LOVE, which will be rewarded, because again.....it is a Kingdom of Love we are talking about. We are all, the Lord's "favorites". He wants to be intimate and close to us, now, and in the next age. But what we do NOW impacts the responsibilities and stewardship we get in the next age.

I did a teaching on this at our ladies retreat two years ago and people loved it.

Also, I wasn't thinking of stars at all. Not sure where you got that from. That might happen, I dunno.

Originally Posted by Colonel

I see what you mean about rewards and the new earth and new heaven (stars to colonize ?) but where is that stuff about only select believers reigning with Christ ? Revelation mentions overcomers from the great tribulation reigning over the peoples during the millenium whatever that means. But these are the more general scripture :

2 Tim 2:11*This is*a faithful saying:
For if we died with*Him,
We shall also live with*Him.
12*If we endure,
We shall also reign with*Him.
If we deny*Him,
He also will deny us.

The context is salvation and enduring typically means enduring in the faith to the end, dying in the faith.

Rev 22:3*And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.
4*They shall see His face, and His name*shall be*on their foreheads.*
5*There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

The above seems to refer to everyone who is redeemed, every servant of God. There is also a more obscure reference to reigning in Rev 5:10 but the language used is the same as here :

Rev 1:5 To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,*
6*and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him*be*glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Which is spoken to all the seven churches that are then rebuked, which makes it very general. The idea of reigning doesnt necessarily imply that one has to reign over other people.

The stars were my idea. I haven't thought about overcoming as different to dying in the faith. How would one define someone as an overcomer ? Since we are told to overcome, we should be able to determine exactly what that means ?

Much of this is in Revelations. I think Mike Bickle said that there were 17 rewards listed for the overcomer in Revelations alone. For example:

Rev. 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27
‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’[j]—

That is literally just one reward the overcomer is promised. There is hidden manna, a white stone with a new name (I could do a teaching on that one premise alone). If you have an open mind, you'll see it as plain as day, right in Revelations.

Again, most NT Christians are absolutely obsessed with the idea of being in heaven for eternity, but we were not created for heaven, will not be in heaven. It's strange, but our body as intended, will merge with our spirit....scripture is clear about this. But who ever hears teaching about the resurrection?

God has always seemed to have a desire to have those who will reign with Him, just as Dr. Heiser points out, but scripture plainly speaks of the 24 elders that also seem to be worshippers, but they are called elders for a reason. So this "give power over nations" seems to very clear.

Originally Posted by Colonel

The stars were my idea. I haven't thought about overcoming as different to dying in the faith. How would one define someone as an overcomer ? Since we are told to overcome, we should be able to determine exactly what that means ?

Okay, but the definition for being an "overcomer" ? "keeps my works to the end" isn't really any clearer.

Someone can be a true Christian without overcoming, being victorious, etc..... Not sure what you're not getting. The bible has to be taken as a whole, then the real picture is painted. This is crystal clear, imo. Again....LOVE is the key. Someone who gives up their lives in LOVE for Jesus, is proving their love and their stewardship over what they have been given by the Holy Spirit. Not every Believer does that. And really, to be honest, even though I try to be very merciful when people are given bad teaching, I still believe that those who have heartfelt love for Jesus, find their way through deception, because of their seeking heart of love. Jesus sees this. But again, it's about the individual and their depth of love for Jesus that determines being an overcomer and not being an overcomer.

As I said, Revelation is only one part of the puzzle, but seeing it for what it is, is a huge part in understanding with applied wisdom. There is a huge lack of even understanding that we are going to rebuild planet earth without Revelation 19-22, even taking into account other prophetic scripture like Isaiah 65:17. Revelation fleshes out in detail, OT prophetic scripture.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Okay, but the definition for being an "overcomer" ? "keeps my works to the end" isn't really any clearer.