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Thread: Does God Predestine Everything?

  1. #1

    Does God Predestine Everything?

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    Does God Predestine Everything? (Part 1) - YouTube
    Christ's Victory Bible Teaching Center
    Web site: http://www.cvbibleteachingcenter.org


    Vindicating God Ministries
    (A Unique New Bible Teaching Ministry)
    Web site: http://www.vindicatinggod.org
    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/vindicatinggod
    Gab: https://gab.com/victoriousword
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    MeWe: https://mewe.com/i/troyedwards15

  2. #2
    One of the greatest challenges in life (imo) is reading or listening to something you think you'll disagree with. (It's even harder if you've predetermined to disagree with it before even listening to it. [little pun there]).

    I did not think I'd agree with the above video. I don't. There are some "funny" bits in it (not ha ha funny). For instance, right at the beginning, Troy says something along the lines of people who disagree with what he's saying will suggest that he doesn't understand Calvinism, and he does, so don't bother telling him he doesn't. But then at the end he says that if we think he's wrong then prove it to him. That would mean showing him that he doesn't understand Reformed Theology. Tricky.

    Anyway, if I was to offer an alternate line of thought I HAD to listen to what Troy said and I did. Doesn't mean anyone will listen to these but one can only put the offer out there.

    This first one is only 6 mins long. Surely you have 6 mins. The speaker takes two passages of scripture, one from Proverbs, and some relating to the Crucifixion. Through them he speaks to the idea of God predestining all things.



    The second is 54 mins long, but speaks to the idea of God predestining only specific men to salvation. It has an interesting title. I'm in the middle of re-watching it so I'm not sure of the context of that sentence.



    If nothing else, if you can't afford a full 6 mins on one video, do this for me. Watch the first 2 mins of these videos. Then go to Troy's video and watch 2 mins from the 38 min mark onward. Then think of what you heard. (addenda. Actually if you start watching the second video at 18 mins 50 secs for 5 mins or so you get the gist of what it's all about)
    Last edited by FunFromOz; 06-14-2020 at 01:07 AM. Reason: Added addenda

  3. #3
    Troy, towards the end of your video you said something like, if we think you're wrong then prove it. Well I doubt that I could personally do that. At least to your acceptance.

    However one thing that you will see admitted in the second video I posted, that you will see when you watch it, is that the idea of predestination is a struggle. No argument about that. But then
    R.C. Sproul says this (though not exactly in these words):

    Augustine (5th century) and Aquinas (13th century) and Luther (16th century) and Calvin (16th century) and Edwards (18th century) did not agree on everything. However one thing all five did agreed on is this: that regeneration precedes faith; and that all who are regenerated come to faith; and that faith is operative faith, not cooperative faith.

    You disagree with them Troy, men who have been referred to as "great Christian thinkers"; "the greatest minds of Christendom"; "an elite company of men"; and "titans of Classical Christian scholarship" among other things, and who all agree on this one thing. Given that you are saying that they are all wrong, what do you know that these men don't?
    Last edited by FunFromOz; 06-14-2020 at 02:44 AM. Reason: reworded last two sentences.

  4. #4
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    Does God Predestine Everything? (Part 2) - YouTube
    Christ's Victory Bible Teaching Center
    Web site: http://www.cvbibleteachingcenter.org


    Vindicating God Ministries
    (A Unique New Bible Teaching Ministry)
    Web site: http://www.vindicatinggod.org
    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/vindicatinggod
    Gab: https://gab.com/victoriousword
    Minds: https://www.minds.com/victoriousword/
    MeWe: https://mewe.com/i/troyedwards15

  5. #5
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    You disagree with them Troy, men who have been referred to as "great Christian thinkers"; "the greatest minds of Christendom"; "an elite company of men"; and "titans of Classical Christian scholarship" among other things, and who all agree on this one thing. Given that you are saying that they are all wrong, what do you know that these men don't?
    Your opinion of the thoughts of those men is yours. It's easy to come up with Christian thinkers etc that disagree with "regeneration precedes faith" and then you might say that "my thinkers are better than yours", which again is your opinion etc.

    Where you lose me completely is with the last question. It makes me want to quote every scripture there is on "Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" but I'm sure that you know them all already.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Your opinion of the thoughts of those men is yours. It's easy to come up with Christian thinkers etc that disagree with "regeneration precedes faith" and then you might say that "my thinkers are better than yours", which again is your opinion etc.

    Where you lose me completely is with the last question. It makes me want to quote every scripture there is on "Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" but I'm sure that you know them all already.
    Yes, my opinion of certain people are mine, though lots would agree, and lots disagree. But these men all agree that "regeneration precedes faith", not from their thoughts, but from their exegesis of Scripture.

    Did you listen to Troy? Pretty much the first 15 mins is him saying Calvinism is wrong. The last bit (from memory) is an exegesis on choice. Not sure why as Reformed Theology never says we haven't got to make choices and we're responsible for them. None of those choise mentioned referred to salvation though.

    P.S. As to what we think of people: I was reading a novel yesterday, part of series. In it there's a back story to allow for a story in the present. I'm guessing we do the same with people from the past, thinking highly of them if they justify our current thoughts, (or destroying their statues if they don't).

  7. #7
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    "regeneration precedes faith" is a difficult statement because regeneration isn't a Biblical term and it can in principle mean anything. Very few theologians believe that "faith precedes regeneration" in the sense that nothing that is supernatural precedes faith. Which would qualify for the definition of "semi-Pelagianism" found on the list of alleged heresies that you linked, in that man initiates the whole thing, not God. The proper Wesley-Arminian formula is

    prevenient grace precedes faith precedes regeneration

    Where regeneration strictly refers to being born again, receiving the Holy Spirit into one's spirit so that they become one spirit. Prevenient grace is where God convicts and draws.

    So pretty much all theologians, including Victoryword, agree that something must precede faith.

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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    "regeneration precedes faith" is a difficult statement because regeneration isn't a Biblical term and it can in principle mean anything. Very few theologians believe that "faith precedes regeneration" in the sense that nothing that is supernatural precedes faith. Which would qualify for the definition of "semi-Pelagianism" found on the list of alleged heresies that you linked, in that man initiates the whole thing, not God. The proper Wesley-Arminian formula is

    prevenient grace precedes faith precedes regeneration

    Where regeneration strictly refers to being born again, receiving the Holy Spirit into one's spirit so that they become one spirit. Prevenient grace is where God convicts and draws.

    So pretty much all theologians, including Victoryword, agree that something must precede faith.
    <sniped something on alleged heresies>

    Interestingly the Methodist church "Began as movement from within the Church of England" (ref) which believed with other churches of a reformed persuasion that:
    "Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity" (ref).

    However Wesley (200 years later) rejected that.
    "Wesley agreed that our sinful situation is desperate; he said he came within a "hair's breadth of Calvinism," and that in our sin no one has the power to choose God or his righteous ways. However, Wesley insisted, God's grace comes before our choosing, to enable and empower us to seek God! Prevenient grace is bestowed on all people, mitigating the effects of original sin".

    Apparently
    For John Wesley, and those of us who are his spiritual heirs, (the notion that Christ only died for some (the elect), and not for all) did not jibe with the Biblical picture of our loving God who, as Paul says, "desires all people to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4); (ref).

    How Colonel does this fit with John 3:2-3
    this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    The highlighted word is the same in the Greek and is most often translated "know" or "see". (See BlueLetterBible.org). As "know" it means things like "to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive" and as "see" it means things like "to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything".

    You say "The proper Wesley-Arminian formula is 'prevenient grace' precedes 'faith' precedes 'regeneration'", but the detail that I've yet to have explained is how do we have faith in something we cannot see/know?

  10. #9
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    <sniped something on alleged heresies>

    Interestingly the Methodist church "Began as movement from within the Church of England" (ref) which believed with other churches of a reformed persuasion that:
    "Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore, they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God, be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through Grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity" (ref).

    However Wesley (200 years later) rejected that.
    "Wesley agreed that our sinful situation is desperate; he said he came within a "hair's breadth of Calvinism," and that in our sin no one has the power to choose God or his righteous ways. However, Wesley insisted, God's grace comes before our choosing, to enable and empower us to seek God! Prevenient grace is bestowed on all people, mitigating the effects of original sin".

    Apparently
    For John Wesley, and those of us who are his spiritual heirs, (the notion that Christ only died for some (the elect), and not for all) did not jibe with the Biblical picture of our loving God who, as Paul says, "desires all people to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4); (ref).

    How Colonel does this fit with John 3:2-3
    this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

    The highlighted word is the same in the Greek and is most often translated "know" or "see". (See BlueLetterBible.org). As "know" it means things like "to know, i.e. get knowledge of, understand, perceive" and as "see" it means things like "to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything".

    You say "The proper Wesley-Arminian formula is 'prevenient grace' precedes 'faith' precedes 'regeneration'", but the detail that I've yet to have explained is how do we have faith in something we cannot see/know?
    Because the Spirit illuminates us so that in his light we see, even though we have no ability to see these things in and of ourselves. Then if we embrace faith while being illuminated, convicted and drawn, the light moves inside of us and becomes one with our spirit and the light remains in us. If we reject faith then the Spirit goes elsewhere and we no longer see anything. Until the Spirit would illuminate us again at a later time.

    Psalm 36:9 In Your light we see light.

    It's all summed up in the following verse :

    John 12:36 While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.

    While you have the light
    believe in the light
    that you may become sons of light

    illumination precedes faith precedes regeneration

    Please quote a verse that says, beyond speculation, that regeneration precedes faith.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Please quote a verse that says, beyond speculation, that regeneration precedes faith.
    I'll get back to you on that.

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