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Thread: Does God Predestine Everything?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The Father draws us by his Spirit.
    Wouldn't it be nicer if Jesus didn't do double re-directions!

  2. #52
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Wouldn't it be nicer if Jesus didn't do double re-directions!
    Not sure what you mean. The trinity is a bit complicated, if that is what you mean.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I'll have to re-check for that.
    He doesn't mention anything that resembles prevenient grace, it's the typical way that the topic is presented. Either it's "faith precedes regeneration" or "regeneration precedes faith"

  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    He doesn't mention anything that resembles prevenient grace, it's the typical way that the topic is presented. Either it's "faith precedes regeneration" or "regeneration precedes faith"
    Closed the wrong window. Let's start again.

    If wiki is correct "in 1739 Wesley preached a sermon on Freedom of Grace, attacking the Calvinistic understanding of predestination as blasphemous, as it represented "God as worse than the devil,"". Christianitytoday says "Wesley couldn't swallow the doctrine of predestination".

    If people disagree then it's still possible to have a good-natured discussion around a subject. But if a person calls your belief blasphemous are you going to give much air-time to their alternative, especially if behind it is that they "couldn't swallow the doctrine" as opposed to simply being able to present a Biblicly consistent alternative?

  5. #55
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Closed the wrong window. Let's start again.

    If wiki is correct "in 1739 Wesley preached a sermon on Freedom of Grace, attacking the Calvinistic understanding of predestination as blasphemous, as it represented "God as worse than the devil,"". Christianitytoday says "Wesley couldn't swallow the doctrine of predestination".

    If people disagree then it's still possible to have a good-natured discussion around a subject. But if a person calls your belief blasphemous are you going to give much air-time to their alternative, especially if behind it is that they "couldn't swallow the doctrine" as opposed to simply being able to present a Biblicly consistent alternative?
    Did Wesley continue to call Calvinism blasphemous for the rest of his life (he lived until 1791) ? To my knowledge he admired several Calvinist preachers. Not for their Calvinism but for other reasons.
    Last edited by Colonel; 06-25-2020 at 11:01 AM.

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    "It is said that when Wesley and Whitefield were at odds on theology and ecclesiastical matters, one of Wesley's adherents asked him, "Do you think we shall see Mr. Whitefield in heaven?" "No," he answered, "I do not. I think he will be so near the Throne, and you and I so far away, that we shall not get within sight of him." {From The Pastor amidst His Flock G. B. Wilcox 1890}

    John Wesley and George Whitefield | The Christian Excavator

    Note that at Whitfield's request, John Wesley preached his funeral.

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  8. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Did Wesley continue to call Calvinism blasphemous for the rest of his life (he lived until 1791) ?
    Haven't seen anything either way.

  9. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Haven't seen anything either way.
    I doubt that very much considering his admiration for George Whitefield.

  10. #59
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Earlier I said :

    "The one who is born again is elect in Christ, the election depends solely on Christ and not at all on the individual, who is nonelect because of sin. If Christ is found in someone, then that someone is elect. It doesn't matter who it is."

    That doesn't mean that I consider Arminius' version of election, "chosen according to foreknowledge" to be incorrect.

    Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world

    We aren't chosen in and ourselves, we are only chosen because of Him living in us, which means we have to enter into Him to be considered chosen.

    The verse says that the mentioned election took place before the foundation of the world, so what does that mean ?

    1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,

    It means that he already then considered us chosen based on foreknowledge of our entering into Christ. Since Christ is God's Chosen One we parttake in his election by being found in Him.

    So both are true, we are elect by foreknowledge but only elect in Christ. If God had foreknown that I wouldn't enter into Christ then he would have foreknown at the same time that I'm not among the elect, because no sinful human being is elect in and of himself. Found in Christ -> elect, not the other way around.

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