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Thread: Does God Predestine Everything?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Noone seeks God until God seeks them out in some way. Hence the need for prevenient grace.
    The Church of England, which Wesley came out of, taught for 200 years that "God ... hath constantly decreed ... to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour ... according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season".

    Wesley said, Na, don't believe that. God calls everyone and it's up to them to believe or not.

    What is that called?

  2. #22
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    C: Does that mean "I can't actually do it
    F: Yes it does. As you well know there is no single verse in the Bible that says, beyond speculation, that regeneration precedes faith. (But then that is true for lots of things, like there's nothing on babies automatically going to heaven for example). The book of Romans, which Paul wrote to explain that salvation is offered through the gospel of Jesus Christ, runs over 16 chapters. It's a bit hard to condense that into one single verse.

    C: Does that mean ... it doesn't really matter
    F: What matters is, through the exegesis of the relevant Scriptures, providing a coherent argument for why such a belief can be considered Biblicly valid.

    C: Does that mean ... the Calvinist model dictates is all that really matters?
    F: Of course not. But as Paul said to the Corinthians, "there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you".
    The problem is that there are many that say that faith precedes regeneration. I quoted one previously, John 12:36.

    Believe in the light
    so that
    you may become sons of light

  4. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    The Church of England, which Wesley came out of, taught for 200 years that "God ... hath constantly decreed ... to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour ... according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season".

    Wesley said, Na, don't believe that. God calls everyone and it's up to them to believe or not.

    What is that called?
    I don't know, "departing from their doctrine on unconditional election" ?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I don't know, "departing from their doctrine on unconditional election" ?
    Moving from
    - "God offers salvation to some" to "God offers salvation to all"
    - "God chooses who He will save" to "Man chooses if he will accept God's offer of salvation"
    - "God choosing who will be saved based on what He willed" to "God choosing to save those He saw, in the corridor of time, would believe"

    is a fairly big move is it not?

  6. #26
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Moving from
    - "God offers salvation to some" to "God offers salvation to all"
    - "God chooses who He will save" to "Man chooses if he will accept God's offer of salvation"
    - "God choosing who will be saved based on what He willed" to "God choosing to save those He saw, in the corridor of time, would believe"

    is a fairly big move is it not?
    What's your point ?

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    What's your point ?
    Believe this or not, the last couple of posts are off-topic.

    I seem to have noticed in the USA at the moment that some statues and monuments are being pulled down or damaged that don't necessarily line up with the stated idea that black lives matter (see link below for example). One possible reason for this is that people don't know history.

    Similarly it seems that a lot of Christians don't know Church history.

    Now there is a word which I won't use, and which I have to be wiser if using in the future, but it's meaning is "belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine". This word has been used as a slur against reformed theology a number of times on this site.

    The trouble is that people use this word about things that are different to what they believe, when, unknown to them, their beliefs, coming later, are actually the ones that are different.

    And such are the beliefs of Wesley wrt salvation. What he said is a belief and an opinion contrary to the 250 year old Church of England, Reformed, religious doctrine, a Church which he was part of.

    I'm not talking right or wrong beliefs here, just that we should be aware of how and why our beliefs were originally formed.

    Rioters deface monument honoring all-black regiment of Union Civil War soldiers | Disrn

  8. #28
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    John Wesley was born in the 1700s.

    Arminianism | Christian theology | Britannica

    Dutch Arminianism was originally articulated in the Remonstrance (1610), a theological statement signed by 45 ministers and submitted to the Dutch states general. The Synod of Dort (1618–19) was called by the states general to pass upon the Remonstrance. The five points of the Remonstrance asserted that: (1) election (and condemnation on the day of judgment) was conditioned by the rational faith or nonfaith of man; (2) the Atonement, while qualitatively adequate for all men, was efficacious only for the man of faith; (3) unaided by the Holy Spirit, no person is able to respond to God's will; (4) grace is not irresistible; and (5) believers are able to resist sin but are not beyond the possibility of falling from grace. The crux of Remonstrant Arminianism lay in the assertion that human dignity requires an unimpaired freedom of the will.

    Synod of Dort - Wikipedia

    The Synod concluded with a rejection of the Arminian views, and set forth the Reformed doctrine on each point, namely: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement (arguing that Christ's atoning work was intended only for the elect and not for the rest of the world), irresistible (or irrevocable) grace, and the perseverance of the saints. These are sometimes referred to as the Five points of Calvinism.

    ---

    Jacobus Arminius articulated the five points of the Remonstrance in 1610, including the need for the action of the Holy Spirit as necessary for someone to come to faith. The Synod of Dort responded to that in 1618-1619 by rejecting those points and setting up their own five points of Calvinism, commonly referred to as TULIP.

    But it really doesn't matter who was first and who was last and who rejected whom. The Roman Catholic Church was before all the Reformers and the apostles of Christ who wrote the New Testament were before the Roman Catholic Church. So that discussion is pointless, they all came to conclusions that were different to those of their predecessors.
    Last edited by Colonel; 06-21-2020 at 10:23 AM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    John Wesley was born in the 1700s.
    ...
    But it really doesn't matter who was first and who was last and who rejected whom.
    Yep, he was born in 1703 apparently. The date I was going off was when the Methodist Church started which was after his death. That makes it closer to 100 years then.

    Interestingly, from reading one site, there's the implication that he was a minister before he was saved. Also on that site he describes the point where it seems he was saved (without him actually doing anything), yet "Wesley couldn't swallow the doctrine of predestination" (which is at odds of him being an Anglican minister).

    Anyway, apart from the writers of Scripture, it doesn't matter who was first or last, all that matters is being consistent with Scripture. But if we understand what has happened in the past we will see that man, being sinful, though being brought back to the Scriptures time and time again, still never takes long to reject the fact that God establishes His rightful place and authority as God by being the one who, by rights of His deity, elects one but not another. In Rom 9 God says "I will show mercy to whom I show mercy", but man likes to drift back to then idea that "God will show mercy to me if I let him".


    John Wesley
    | Christian History | Christianity Today

  10. #30
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    God will show mercy to him who lets himself be born again, not to him who strives to be good enough. Romans 9 is pure gospel.

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