I've been in discussions where we explored the concept of how little man was to contribute beyond letting himself be convicted and drawn, that could be termed "within a (safe) hair's breadth" of Calvinism. It is possible to go too far with that and if one removes man's participation by choice entirely then one has simply lost it, in my opinion.
I may have misunderstood what Wesley meant by coming "within a hair's breadth" of Calvinism, thinking his beliefs were close to the reformed beliefs of the Anglican Church. However the the referenced article later says that "Wesley insisted, God's grace comes before our choosing, to enable and empower us to seek God!" in spite of Paul, in his thesis on Salvation to the Romans, clearly says that no one seeks God.
I attempted to put the reformed view and "an other" view into Venn Diagrams.
On the left we have a set that includes everyone and within that we have a sub-set whom God choices to save.
On the right we have a set of people all of whom God draws, and within that a sub-set who choose to accept the salvation offered them. Outside that we have another sub-set of people who never get old enough to enter into that process.
"if one removes man's participation by choice entirely then one has simply lost it"
That's really the sticking point isn't it? Who says what happens in the world?
Is it
(A) the creator God, holy, just, eternal, worshipped forever in heaven where "four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; ... day and night they do not cease to say, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God, the Almighty, who was and who is and who is to come." (Rev 4:8) or
(B) the created man who does not seek God (Psa 14:2, 52:2, Rom 3:11), whose heart is deceitful above all things (Jer 17:9); from which comes "evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder" etc. (Mark 7:21); that is "evil continually" (Gen 6:5); and that needs replacing (Ezek 36:26)
Lately you've been presenting things in an emotional manner instead of discussing facts. That may work on convinced Calvinists but I can assure you that it has no effect on anyone else.
Still waiting for this :
Colonel : Please quote a verse that says, beyond speculation, that regeneration precedes faith.FunFromOz : I'll get back to you on that.
(first bit) Just highlighting the vast difference between God and man. (and come-on Colonel, one of the concerns some have about the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement is it's emotionalism)
(second bit) as you know that that's not a valid request. God gave us the Bible and verses aren't to be cherry picked, but are to be understood in context. In context of the verses around them, what the author is speaking about, the chapter, the book, and testament, and the Bible. One of the fruits of the Spirit is "patience", so bear some for me till I have time for that one please.
That's not what it looks like in these threads.
Does that mean "I can't actually do it and it doesn't really matter because what the Calvinist model dictates is all that really matters" ?(second bit) as you know that that's not a valid request. God gave us the Bible and verses aren't to be cherry picked, but are to be understood in context. In context of the verses around them, what the author is speaking about, the chapter, the book, and testament, and the Bible. One of the fruits of the Spirit is "patience", so bear some for me till I have time for that one please.
Q: Has God ordained everything, including our besetting sins?
JP: Yes
Aight. I'm gone.
C: Does that mean "I can't actually do it
F: Yes it does. As you well know there is no single verse in the Bible that says, beyond speculation, that regeneration precedes faith. (But then that is true for lots of things, like there's nothing on babies automatically going to heaven for example). The book of Romans, which Paul wrote to explain that salvation is offered through the gospel of Jesus Christ, runs over 16 chapters. It's a bit hard to condense that into one single verse.
C: Does that mean ... it doesn't really matter
F: What matters is, through the exegesis of the relevant Scriptures, providing a coherent argument for why such a belief can be considered Biblicly valid.
C: Does that mean ... the Calvinist model dictates is all that really matters?
F: Of course not. But as Paul said to the Corinthians, "there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you".