Thread: Did God Kill Jesus?

The debates on Calvinism or not from the 15-1800s were rarely focused on whether or not God had wrath towards sinners. The dividing lines were found elsewhere unless universalism entered the discussion.

Originally Posted by Colonel

The debates on Calvinism or not from the 15-1800s were rarely focused on whether or not God had wrath towards sinners. The dividing lines were found elsewhere unless universalism entered the discussion.

Calvinist doctrine and churches exists down here but not to the extent of their influence in Europe and America.
Aussies are less likely to embrace calvinism due to our cultural attitudes.

The larger churches are mostly pente/charismatic or evangelical which focus more on the goodness of God.

The balance was God wants us to experience his love and goodness but he is also a holy God.

Many ministers are now recognising God's love and goodness have been hijacked where 'sound doctrine' or God is holy is no longer that important.
Post - modernism has definitely entered sections of the church and if you bring up God's holiness some believers call you legalistic and judgemental.

I can see in the old debates that Calvinists had such an over emphasis on God's wrath that the others would tone that down but never towards zero. They still landed firmly on the side of taking that aspect of theology seriously. I can also see how Calvinist debaters of today have the ability to send others flying across the middle of the road and into the opposite ditch. With things like foreknowledge, predestination but also wrath. Maybe also with their belief in particular love/redemption where God has no love that is general for all human beings and it can be tempting to land in the opposite ditch of unconditional humanism.

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

Calvinist doctrine and churches exists down here but not to the extent of their influence in Europe and America.
Aussies are less likely to embrace calvinism due to our cultural attitudes.

The larger churches are mostly pente/charismatic or evangelical which focus more on the goodness of God.

The balance was God wants us to experience his love and goodness but he is also a holy God.

Many ministers are now recognising God's love and goodness have been hijacked where 'sound doctrine' or God is holy is no longer that important.
Post - modernism has definitely entered sections of the church and if you bring up God's holiness some believers call you legalistic and judgemental.

Norwegians are a bit different, they tend to reject Calvinism because they believe strongly in free will and unlimited atonement but they can have an over emphasis on God's wrath at the same time.

Originally Posted by victoryword

One reason I do not like to waste a lot of time debating this is because most people don't really study the whole Bible in relation to what it means for God to have wrath and anger and all they do is what you do TT - you seem to make it appear as if God has to take different "theological attributes" and intermingle them in order to explain your theological concepts.

First and foremost, God is NOT wrath nor is He anger. The defining characteristic of God is LOVE. God does NOT turn off His love in order to exercise wrath/anger. If my children are doing drugs, engaging in sexual immorality or any other dangerous behavior, of course I will become angry, but not because I have been slighted or offended by their behavior as is true with most humans. I will be angry because of what they are doing to hurt themselves and others. My anger is based on my LOVE, not my personally being offended at the violation of my holy standards.

God gets angry and has wrath but not in the way many of you would like to depict Him apart from the revelation of God as seen in Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself became angry but why? Because of what some were doing to others and to themselves. Note that Jesus still loved the sinner and His main purpose was to free them from sin.

The Father and Jesus are exactly alike. Scripture teaches this. The Father's anger is no different than Jesus'. The Father does NOT have a violent temper. In His "wrath" God grieves over the sins of man. Therefore, the redemptive work in Christ was not over God's anger with the human race but His love for it.

There are some good comments here but some nonsense ones as well
Plenty of christians have studied the Bible and they don't arrive at your conclusions about God's love. You have humanised God's love from your point of view


How do you answer those christians who think your definition of God is Love is actually a mean spirited angry vengeful God

They argue God is love and therefore hell doesn't even exist - they would say for you to believe in hell as a christian is monstrous
Others would say that your God is horrid to not stop satan killing Jesus when he has the power

Others say your definition of God's love is still lacking that doesn't allow same sex marriage and your God is hateful


You see I can play that game to and make up a God who is love and if you disagree then your God is angry/wrathful who likes torturing people



You have chosen to define God is love according your perception and understanding and hence anyone disagreeing is wrong

That is an excellent post, Cardinal TT.

In 1993 God revealed himself to me in the form of an all consuming fire. The power of it only grew until he left about half an hour later. He was all those things I mentioned, love, life, light, spirit. And more, but very substantially all those things. I can't point out one thing he was more than the others except holy. But that would be because he is the antithesis to the unholiness that permeates this world including when it's dealing with concepts like that. Holy simply cannot cohabit with unholy so the only reason why there isn't a clash is that he withholds his presence out of mercy, except where he manifests it through the medium of grace. I have no doubt that if he had manifested his presence across the globe like he did during that encounter and outside of the medium of grace then every single sinner on Earth would literally die within seconds. And that was just a small trickle. Is he obligated to override his holiness for the sake of love or at least to do what it takes so that everyone is okay no matter what ? No, but he chooses to stretch out his hand based on relation but not outside of relation. The totality of who he is, which defines his love and also his other attributes, demands that.

Originally Posted by Colonel

That is an excellent post, Cardinal TT.

In 1993 God revealed himself to me in the form of an all consuming fire. The power of it only grew until he left about half an hour later. He was all those things I mentioned, love, life, light, spirit. And more, but very substantially all those things..

That is why we have to take ALL the scriptures to form doctrine of God's nature
I am so glad he is LOVE ...it was his love that sent Jesus and all humans need a revelation of the love of God

As you say God is also others things like light, truth and holy.


Currently there is a large growing movement who are elevating God's love BEYOND what the scriptures teach. This is leading to crazy beliefs and comments by christians who say God's love trumps everything but the problem is THEIR definition allows all sorts of carnality, false teaching and even immorality.

Many of these christians are not nominal but come from evangelical and spirit filled backgrounds. Their new beliefs are appalling in the way God's love is twisted.

Satan is not dumb and he is using God's LOVE as a major deception to promote his lies.
By using the phrase 'God is love' to promote error it has a strong effect on silencing those who disagree because no christian wants to be known as anti love of God


It needs to be said....

Satan is using God is love to promote a distorted message

If anyone thinks I am exaggerating ....
Down here the pastor of one of our mega churches recently stepped down because he felt the time had come to move on

There is some partial truth to that but for the last 5 years his wife has embraced the LGBT agenda and publicly supports it. This has caused friction in the church.
She was also a pastor and used to preach and she then stepped down from being an official pastor and no longer preaches

The toll on the pastor would be great as he loves his wife and wants to support her but he also is a shepherd to the sheep and needs to stand for truth and not let deception enter. I believe he made the right decision to resign and work on his marriage without the pressures of pastoring

The wife is not gay but is deluded as she believes the church is wrong not to support LGBT agenda and surprise surprise thinks the church does not show the 'love of God'

I have met this pastor and his wife and they are a great christian pentecostal couple. They would be one of the last couples I would of thought for this problem to occur.

It is not exaggerating to say ...'God is Love' is being used by satan to poison christians and churches

The gospel simplified all the way down to a humanistic "God is love" is no different to a spiritual version of "All you need is love" by the Beatles. Which is New Age. Even when it includes a powerful Satan as an adversary instead of the foul creatures from the Beatles video (which I suppose represent human authorities that resist progress)

It's funny that John the Baptist preached a simple message of repentance as in "the ax is at the root of every tree" and then Jesus declared him the greatest among those born of women. John the Baptist reiterated the holy, consuming fire to Israelites who had heard no prophet speak to them for 400 years. Jesus then brought and embodied light, the right kind of spirit and then love bringing them to life by the power of forgiveness. It's all in John 1-3 which is very parallell to 1 John.

Originally Posted by Colonel

The gospel simplified all the way down to a humanistic "God is love" is no different to a spiritual version of "All you need is love" by the Beatles. Which is New Age..

It's the same false spirit but this time it's working in parts of the church