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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Conflicted

    With all the evil happening in the world today, many of us have been a little comforted that here in America we have the 2nd Amendment which guarantees our right to bear arms.

    You never know when some whack-job junkie or gang banger may appear and threaten you or your loved ones, or even some other innocent bystander.

    Studying American History, we see many preachers and congregations engaged in fighting the British in order to secure freedom for our nation.

    In the OT there was a lot of killing going on directed by God. He ordered His people to kill their enemies.

    But then, Jesus comes on the scene and says this:

    Matthew 5:43-48


    "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. ...
    Then you also have this scripture:

    28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will. 30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.
    Confess Christ Before Men

    32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.


    34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law'; 36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.' 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it
    .
    Studying early church history, we see that the Apostles didn't fight or kill to preserve their lives, and during the Reformation we also don't see the reformers taking up arms against the RCC. Instead, they boldly proclaimed the Truth.

    On the other hand, John the baptist tells soldiers:

    Luke 3:14
    New King James Version

    14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?"

    So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."
    He never told them to quit being soldiers, and soldiers are quite often required to kill.

    Peter never told Cornelius to quit being a soldier when he was converted.

    Paul said this:

    Romans 13:3-5
    New King James Version

    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.
    So, where does the scripture give disciples the right/responsibility to kill anybody?

    Should we instead just simply focus on making disciples of Jesus who don't have to fear death?

    Jesus said not to fear him who can kill your body and do no more to you.

    To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

    I love the Lord and hate evil. The Word of God says that no murderer will see the kingdom of God.

    In man's eyes/law there is such a thing as self defense. But where would that fit in with "Love your enemies and pray for those who would spitefully use you"????


    I think this is an important question to answer, but it must be totally scripture based, because our eternal destiny may depend on it.

    Does anyone else feel this conflict within themselves?

    Are we supposed to just handle things like David Wilkerson did when threatened by Nicky Cruz with a knife?

    Last edited by Ezekiel 33; 02-09-2021 at 08:37 AM. Reason: add thought

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  3. #2
    I carry a .45 and even right now as I post this. There is no conflict. I carry to save others lives.

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireBrand View Post
    I carry a .45 and even right now as I post this. There is no conflict. I carry to save others lives.
    I am with you on those thoughts. But where is the scripture to back up that stance?
    We are called to save lives- to an eternal hope.

    Would you be willing to kill someone in self defense or in the defense of others if it meant you not inheriting the kingdom of heaven?

    I'm looking for a rock to stand on, and that rock has to be the Word of God for me. Seriously seeking a scriptural answer to stand on before I am ever faced with the question I just asked.

    I have thought about getting a concealed permit for a while because of the way the world is going. But not if it could cost me eternity.

    Can you build a solid scriptural case for this stance?

    When Nicky Cruz told David Wilkerson that he was going to cut him into a thousand pieces with his switchblade, David said something like, "Go ahead, and each of those thousand pieces will still love you." And we all know the outcome of that encounter. A great evangelist was born out if it.

    I would be more likely to pull out my weapon and shoot him.
    But would we be faithful disciples of Jesus if we killed him?
    In God's eyes, would we be considered murderers?

    In my flesh I know that I would want to destroy him for threatening my life or if it were the life of a loved one or innocent bystander. But how is the Spirit man supposed to deal with a situation like this?

    My heart is heavy over this. I want to be a good and faithful servant over all else.
    Last edited by Ezekiel 33; 02-09-2021 at 04:50 PM. Reason: add thought

  6. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    I am with you on those thoughts. But where is the scripture to back up that stance?
    We are called to save lives- to an eternal hope.

    Would you be willing to kill someone in self defense or in the defense of others if it meant you not inheriting the kingdom of heaven?

    I'm looking for a rock to stand on, and that rock has to be the Word of God for me. Seriously seeking a scriptural answer to stand on before I am ever faced with the question I just asked.

    I have thought about getting a concealed permit for a while because of the way the world is going. But not if it could cost me eternity.

    Can you build a solid scriptural case for this stance?

    When Nicky Cruz told David Wilkerson that he was going to cut him into a thousand pieces with his switchblade, David said something like, "Go ahead, and each of those thousand pieces will still love you." And we all know the outcome of that encounter. A great evangelist was born out if it.

    I would be more likely to pull out my weapon and shoot him.
    But would we be faithful disciples of Jesus if we killed him?
    In God's eyes, would we be considered murderers?

    In my flesh I know that I would want to destroy him for threatening my life or if it were the life of a loved one or innocent bystander. But how is the Spirit man supposed to deal with a situation like this?

    My heart is heavy over this. I want to be a good and faithful servant over all else.
    Davie's stance was partly from his being on their turf. He had to prove his love. How could minister otherwise.

    I don't see where defending someone else is wrong. Would you allow someone to break in and kill your family in the night? If you are looking for a scripture to speak otherwise I would like to see that. For me to idly stand by and let someone rape, slash and beat someone to death when I just might have the means to make a difference for them to see another day...that is love and the bible says that.

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  8. #5
    You may not find what you are looking for to resolve this conflict. In that case, be obedient.

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Thanks guys.


    That is a very hard question Fuego. For years I thought I would probably empty my gun on anyone who attacked my family. Then, as I was reading the persecution of the reformers, the RCC did exactly that, trying to make them recant while threatening death to their loved ones.


    It seems that one of them ( I will have to find it again, because I have read and studied so much of that history in the past few weeks) told his daughter not to fear because they would soon see each other in glory. That all they could do is kill the body. Something like that.

    If we make sure our family is soundly saved, then I guess we have nothing to fear. This world isn't that great of a place these days anyhoo.

    I look forward to seeing the face of Jesus and beholding the beauty of what He has created for us for all of eternity. Not much else matters.

    Meanwhile, we must make the most of our days here and go make disciples. That has to be our main focus.

    We just watched The Cross and the Switchblade tonight as a family movie. I have always wanted to see it and it popped up on youtube on our smart TV.

    Made me pray for God to give me that kind of love for the lost and the scoundrels in the world today.

    Meanwhile, I will continue to pray for God to show me His answer to this great conflict within me.

    Love you guys!

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    Thanks guys.


    That is a very hard question Fuego.
    Did I ask a question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    With all the evil happening in the world today, many of us have been a little comforted that here in America we have the 2nd Amendment which guarantees our right to bear arms.

    You never know when some whack-job junkie or gang banger may appear and threaten you or your loved ones, or even some other innocent bystander.

    Studying American History, we see many preachers and congregations engaged in fighting the British in order to secure freedom for our nation.

    In the OT there was a lot of killing going on directed by God. He ordered His people to kill their enemies.

    But then, Jesus comes on the scene and says this:



    Then you also have this scripture:



    Studying early church history, we see that the Apostles didn't fight or kill to preserve their lives, and during the Reformation we also don't see the reformers taking up arms against the RCC. Instead, they boldly proclaimed the Truth.

    On the other hand, John the baptist tells soldiers:



    He never told them to quit being soldiers, and soldiers are quite often required to kill.

    Peter never told Cornelius to quit being a soldier when he was converted.

    Paul said this:



    So, where does the scripture give disciples the right/responsibility to kill anybody?

    Should we instead just simply focus on making disciples of Jesus who don't have to fear death?

    Jesus said not to fear him who can kill your body and do no more to you.

    To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

    I love the Lord and hate evil. The Word of God says that no murderer will see the kingdom of God.

    In man's eyes/law there is such a thing as self defense. But where would that fit in with "Love your enemies and pray for those who would spitefully use you"????


    I think this is an important question to answer, but it must be totally scripture based, because our eternal destiny may depend on it.

    Does anyone else feel this conflict within themselves?

    Are we supposed to just handle things like David Wilkerson did when threatened by Nicky Cruz with a knife?

    The apostles didn't fight back physically when persecuted for their faith but I'm sure that they defended themselves if attacked for other reasons. Against highway robbers, for instance.

    Cornelius was an officer and one level above centurions. He was in charge of 600 soldiers.

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    Senior Member Romans828's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    ... I look forward to seeing the face of Jesus and beholding the beauty of what He has created for us, for all of eternity. Not much else matters.

    Amen, Brother!

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    Senior Member Nikos's Avatar
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    For years I thought I would probably empty my gun on anyone who attacked my family.

    WWJD

    Would Jesus take a gun and blow someone's head off.

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