Thread: Did Jesus die Spiritually???

OK, we haven't had a good argument in a while so here is a subject that will actually change your relationship with the Lord enabling you to gain a much deeper understanding of how much He loves you and the suffering He did for you so satan cannot legally put the effects of sin upon mankind back on you... if you dare to believe what the early Church fathers believed, that Jesus died spiritually and was literally separated from the Father in every way imaginable because... that was what should have happened to us for our sin!

Scriptures about JDS
Consider these entries God made in His Word...

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He has made Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
(see Romans 6:23 - the wages of sin is death)

All things are possible with God (except lying), including Jesus experiencing everything we would have experienced had we died in our sins and would have been completely separated from God and incarcerated in hell... still very much alive as in being aware, but being "dead" in the sense that we have been totally, and completely cut off from the life of God and totally, and completely cut off from all good to experience absolute darkness and absolute evil.

This is what Jesus Christ experienced as He tasted of death for every man:

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

God's angels are not dead (separated from God), so this is referring to fallen angels who rule over those that are dead in the sense they are separated from God and are not born again.

Isaiah 52:14
As many were astonied at thee; His visage was so marred more
than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
He was so deformed; He did not appear in the form of a man anymore. This cannot be a reference to Jesus' physical body, because John 19:36 says not one bone was broken in Jesus Body, which shows that His physical Body must have still been in the shape and image of how a man normally looks physically.

So Isaiah 52:14 must be a reference to His spiritual body (see 1 Corinthians 15:40 that mentions two types of bodies, on physical and one spiritual)

Additional Thoughts - Isaiah 52 is obviously speaking of Jesus Christ, yet John 19:36 says "Not one of his bones will be broken" (quoting Psalm 34:20)... this leads to Isaiah 52:14 meaning it is speaking of Jesus in a state other than His physical state. In the story Jesus told of a "certain" (this means it is an actual account of two people and not just a parable spoken for the sake of illustration) rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), there is no indication whatsoever that Lazarus was in any pain or discomfort at all in Abraham's bosom.

Additional Thoughts - We know that this verse is talking about a spiritual resurrection and not a natural one because there were several resurrections before Jesus died and rose again. If it was just a natural resurrection God was talking about, then Jesus could not have been called the Firstborn from the dead.

If Jesus had just gone to Abraham's bosom, then the scripture would not have references to Jesus suffering pain (Acts 2:24) and being with the dead (Isaiah 53:8) which are those that are cut off from God. Jesus went there because of OUR sin because the penalty of sin is death which is to be separated from God. Just like the scapegoat was separated from the camp (Leviticus 16:26) as on carrying the sin of the people, Jesus was separated from God with our sin. Since He was sinless, He was the only One who could have done this for mankind.


Hebrews 13:11,12
For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.

Companion scripture:

Isaiah 53:8
By oppression and judgment He was taken away; and as for His generation, who considered
that He was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of My people

“Cut off out of the land of the living” is being separated from Life (God) and is not being in Abraham's bosom which was the temporary location of Paradise which was necessary for the OT saints to be held there until the new birth became available. We know all OT saints went to Abraham's bosom when they died and not into the presence of God because in John 1:18 Jesus said no man had seen God.

Isaiah 53:10-12
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul (spirit is inside the soul) an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death (separation from God): and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


Matthew 12:40
For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Numerous passages in the Psalms are considered by Bible scholars to be Jesus speaking,
as this does fit with what other scriptures say concerning Jesus' death in our behalf.

Psalms 86:13
For great is thy mercy toward Me: and thou hast delivered My soul (spirit is inside the soul) from the lowest hell.

Psalms 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
(Corruption = becoming defective in thinking, viewpoint, vision... Jesus never lost faith or knowledge of Who He was)

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

WHY did Jesus have to be “justified in the spirit?” if He had not been separated from God which is the definition of ‘death‘ according to what God told Adam in the Garden of Eden would happen if he ate the tree of the knowledge of good and evil… in that day Adam surely died but not physically (Adam lived over 900 years) meaning God was referring to spiritual death which is being cut off from the life of God.

Since Adam became separated from the life of God, Jesus had to come and undo what Adam did, so Jesus had to have been separated from the life of God… so God could raise Him from the dead and justify Him from death so all that would be in Christ could also be raised from death.

You're just pulling out all the stops, huh?

Some things in the OT are written from Jesus' experiences in His suffering what each of us should have suffered for out sin...

Psalms 88
1 O LORD God of my salvation, I have cried day and night before thee:
2 Let my prayer come before thee: incline thine ear unto my cry;
3 For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave.
4 I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength:
5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
6 Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps.
7 Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted me with all thy waves. Selah.
8 Thou hast put away mine acquaintance far from me; thou hast made me an abomination unto them: I am shut up, and I cannot come forth.
9 Mine eye mourneth by reason of affliction: LORD, I have called daily upon thee, I have stretched out my hands unto thee.
10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
13 But unto thee have I cried, O LORD; and in the morning shall my prayer prevent thee.
14 LORD, why castest thou off my soul? why hidest thou thy face from me?
15 I am afflicted and ready to die from my youth up: while I suffer thy terrors I am distracted.
16 Thy fierce wrath goeth over me; thy terrors have cut me off.
17 They came round about me daily like water; they compassed me about together.
18 Lover and friend hast thou put far from me, and mine acquaintance into darkness.

Psalms 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
(He can do this since Jesus has already been there and was raised...)

Matthew 27:50
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
Between verse 50 and 51 were 3 days and nights...then, the resurrection of Jesus Christ!

Matthew 27:51-53
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

*These were OT Saints that were formerly in Abraham's bosom that experienced coming back in to their dead (sleeping) physical bodies and walking the earth once again... since Jesus has received His glorified body, they were able also to receive the same and ascend up to Heaven along with Jesus as they had become born again and are now joint heirs with Jesus, so they get what He got since they are now In Christ.

Ephesians 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things

*OT Saints were held in captivity in Abraham's bosom as they were waiting on the new birth to become available and could not go into God's presence in Heaven until then (No man seeing God changed after Jesus was raised from death, but was true at the time Jesus spoke about no man seeing God - see John 1:18, No man hath seen God at any time - see John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.)

*Lower parts of the earth is lower than Abraham's boson (the temporary holding place for Paradise that God setup for OT Saints to stay in until the new birth was made available to them which happened at Jesus' resurrection).

*Jesus descending into the lower parts of the earth demonstrates that he actually went to the place of the dead, the place of torment spoken of in the account of the rich man and Lazurus

1 Corinthians 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.

*The reason the Bible says the OT Saints has died not having obtained the promise, was referring to the promise of God's Spirit in reference to the new birth, or the restoration of being one with God again that Adam lost in the Garden of Eden when he sinned.

Hebrews 11:39,40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the Promise of the Spirit through faith

Romans 10:7
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.

Romans 10:7 Young's Literal Translation
or, 'Who shall go down to the abyss,' that is, Christ out of the dead to bring up.

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1 Peter 3:18,19
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

*Prison - Strongs G5442, cage, holding place (Abraham's bosom, temporary holding place for OT Saints)
*Once Jesus was quickened by the Spirit (raised from the dead, the lower parts of the earth), He went over to Abraham's bosom and preached the Gospel, proclaiming that death (separation from God and His spiritual life that Adam caused all men to be born in to) has been defeated the new birth is now available to them first...

Acts 2:24
Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

*Those in Abraham's bosom were not experiencing any pain whatsoever.

Acts 13:34-37
And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. (Pslams 16:10)
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption. (look at original text - verse 34 just said He did see corruption)
(Corruption = becoming defective in thinking, viewpoint, vision, losing ability to see and fellowship with God.)

2 Corinthians 12:2-4
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

*Here, Paul is saying Paradise in in the third Heaven where God is... this is where Paradise was moved to when Jesus was resurrected since men were now able to be born again, making them able to be in God's presence.

2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

*Some have taught that since some men "sleep" and will be raised later that this is proof of soul sleep which is not true as this is simply referring to the fact they the physical body (one third of our being) is still waiting to be resurrected, as we are waiting to receive our glorified body. God considers our entire being (spirit, soul, body) as being one, as being who we are, so we are not completely resurrected in the literal sense until our immortal/glorified body is provided to us that we will live in and enjoy for ever.

*When our body ceases to function, this is just physical death, which only effects one third of our being and does not effect our spirit/soul which is immediately placed in the presence of God (paradise which is now in the third heaven where God resides)

Hebrews 1:5-8
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

*Hebrews 1:5 is a companion scripture with Psalm 2:7 - I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee

*Firstbegotten is a reference to Jesus being the first Man to be born-again from death to life.
*Adam was the first born-again man - he was born from life to death, so it was necessary for God to
send the Word in the form of a man (in the flesh) to reverse what Adam had done when he committed sin.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned
with glory and honor; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

*Hebrews 2:14 says that satan had the power of death, so obviously Jesus was put under satan's power and authority for a time as He tasted or suffered death in behalf of all people.

Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Originally Posted by fuego

You're just pulling out all the stops, huh?

Well, we gotta look at the scripture continually feeding from the revelation the Lord has made available to His people

I've always been one to ask questions and I found out fairly quick as q young Christians that many preachers are kinda shallow and cannot answer hard questions and will even get made at you for asking them as though you did something wrong.

So, for over 30 years I've been continually looking looking for answers to things others don't like to talk about... and I've found God will teach any who come to Him with a sincere heart wanting to learn.

People shut off the flow of revelation when they start thinking we cannot know why things are the way they are and way bad things happen and all those hard questions...

Anyway, what happened to Jesus after He left His Body on the Cross has long been a controversial discussion... and many will get mad about what actually happened to Him.

Jesus being poor on earth is very minor pain and discomfort compared to suffering spiritually under satan

Substitutionary atonement is about Jesus suffering what would have been our due. That includes anything that has to do with coming under the curse of sin. It doesn't include being forced to act out sin as some proponents come close to rendering Jesus as doing. According to Jesus' choices and the intentions of his heart, he remained pure, the innocent lamb of God. It does not include the pain of getting very dirty from walking around in sandals all day by choice or stubbing one's toe on a stone because one didn't look carefully. Those are part of how God created this world to begin with and have nothing to do with sin or being under a curse of poverty. Adam and Eve would have gotten dirty, sweaty, tired and overheated in the sun from choosing to walk around (without the sandals) in the garden of Eden all day long. And in pain from stubbing a toe on a stone.

Kenneth Hagin made this teaching popular after he read E.W. Kenyon's works. Most WOF people have rejected this as false teaching. This was strictly the idea of Kenyon. That is why the ranks of WOF have thinned greatly the last few years. They continue to hold on to the false teachings like this. Other false teachings in WOF, man can have 120 years on earth , 100 fold return on your giving.

Originally Posted by LionHeart

Kenneth Hagin made this teaching popular after he read E.W. Kenyon's works. Most WOF people have rejected this as false teaching.

I didn't know that most wof have rejected it


This was strictly the idea of Kenyon. That is why the ranks of WOF have thinned greatly the last few years. They continue to hold on to the false teachings like this.

Other false teachings in WOF, man can have 120 years on earth ,
I have been saying that for years......Krystian won't be happy as she has special cream to make her look young once she hits 120..
.

.

Verses that talk about where Jesus was between His death and resurrection

Luke 23:43, And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”
Acts 2:27, "Because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor allow Your Holy One to undergo decay."
Acts 2:31, "he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did His flesh suffer decay."
Acts 13:35, "Therefore He also says in another Psalm, ‘You will not allow Your Holy One to undergo decay.’"
1 Pet. 3:19, "in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison."

None of these verses say that Jesus went to Hell and suffered (See What are the verses that mention hell in the New Testament?). None. So, how can people such as Joyce Meyer, Kenneth Copeland, Fred Price, Charles Caps, etc., say Jesus suffered in Hell and paid our price there? They can't because it doesn't say anything of the sort. For anyone to say that Christ actually suffered in Hell at the hands of the devil by taking our place, the person has read into the text things that are simply not there. It is not proper to interpret Scripture in any manner that is not faithful to the text. We see from the verses listed above that Jesus was going to Paradise, His body did not undergo decay and that He made proclamation to the spirits now in prison. It does not say in any of the verses that He suffered in Hell. It just isn't there.

Originally Posted by Colonel

Substitutionary atonement is about Jesus suffering what would have been our due. That includes anything that has to do with coming under the curse of sin. It doesn't include being forced to act out sin as some proponents come close to rendering Jesus as doing. According to Jesus' choices and the intentions of his heart, he remained pure, the innocent lamb of God. It does not include the pain of getting very dirty from walking around in sandals all day by choice or stubbing one's toe on a stone because one didn't look carefully. Those are part of how God created this world to begin with and have nothing to do with sin or being under a curse of poverty. Adam and Eve would have gotten dirty, sweaty, tired and overheated in the sun from choosing to walk around (without the sandals) in the garden of Eden all day long. And in pain from stubbing a toe on a stone.

Wrong thread...are you still whining about Jeus being poor