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Thread: Wesley on Election (sorta) etc.

  1. #1

    Wesley on Election (sorta) etc.

    (I put this here lest it gets lost in another thread that people had stopped reading.)

    Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it. (Prov 22:6)

    Looking at what's been going on lately, seeing someone going to a rally wanting to talk "facts" to people and they don't want to hear them, I can understand it a bit better now.

    As I mentioned elsewhere (link) I started reading this again:
    Wesley on Election (sorta) etc.-capture-jpg

    Five people present their view and then the other four give a rebuttal. So I read the first chapter and then we get to the first rebuttal where there are statement like, that only refers to the apostles; being given to Jesus by the Father doesn't assure salvation; that's a call to service not salvation; etc. Given I don't agree with that it's actually hard, uncomfortable even, to read. But read it I must to understand where others are coming from.

    When speaking on "Objections to Unconditional Election" the writer, for some reason, starts thus:

    On Sunday morning, April 29, 1739, John Wesley (1703–1791) preached one of the most memorable and impacting sermons of his entire preaching ministry. In this sermon that was soon published under the title, "Free Grace," Wesley took as his text Romans 8:32 ("He that spared not his own Son"), and as Wesley wrote to James Hutton the next day, he "declared openly for the first hour against 'the horrible decree'"—an obvious reference to Calvin's own comment about the doctrine of divine reprobation, some version of which follows from the doctrine of unconditional election. In his informative discussion of Wesley's sermon and its impact on Methodism, H. B. McGonigle comments, "This sermon was something of a theological tour de force. It revealed John Wesley, in his first sermon and publication on predestination, to be dogmatically anti-Calvinist. Although Calvin's name was never mentioned nor that of any other Calvinist writer, it was Calvin's teaching on the 'horrible decree' that was plainly the target."

    Wesley enumerated several objections to the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election, as many Arminians throughout history have done. (Emphasis mine)

    Brand, Chad. Perspectives on Election (pp. 25-26). B&H Publishing. Kindle Edition.
    Wesley is not unique here, as someone else said, and I've seen the sentiment in a number of places, "The most despised, the most rejected ... doctrine in the Bible is election" (The despised and rejected doctrine of election. | Victory Christian Fellowship Rock Springs)

    But why I mention that is what Wesley has done here is something I've seen a couple of times; from a "minister" in my denomination; from a well known person from the early 19th century; and here from Wesley. He accepted being a minister in a church yet openly disbelieved at least one of the doctrines of that church.

    That doesn't sit well with me. How about you?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    "The most despised, the most rejected ... doctrine in the Bible is election"
    From reading comments online and speaking to people over the years I have to disagree....the most offensive doctrine is that there is a hell and it lasts for eternity
    Many believers are rejecting it who don't equate it with election

    There are people who get upset after you share the gospel and then say 'you are now accountable to God if you reject his salvation'
    I remember witnessing to friend when I first got saved and he was furious with me and said....Why did you tell me about Jesus?

    He basically wanted to sin and not be accountable and thought if he hadn't heard the gospel God couldn't judge him

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    (I put this here lest it gets lost in another thread that people had stopped reading.)

    Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it. (Prov 22:6)

    Looking at what's been going on lately, seeing someone going to a rally wanting to talk "facts" to people and they don't want to hear them, I can understand it a bit better now.

    As I mentioned elsewhere (link) I started reading this again:
    Wesley on Election (sorta) etc.-capture-jpg

    Five people present their view and then the other four give a rebuttal. So I read the first chapter and then we get to the first rebuttal where there are statement like, that only refers to the apostles; being given to Jesus by the Father doesn't assure salvation; that's a call to service not salvation; etc. Given I don't agree with that it's actually hard, uncomfortable even, to read. But read it I must to understand where others are coming from.

    When speaking on "Objections to Unconditional Election" the writer, for some reason, starts thus:



    Wesley is not unique here, as someone else said, and I've seen the sentiment in a number of places, "The most despised, the most rejected ... doctrine in the Bible is election" (The despised and rejected doctrine of election. | Victory Christian Fellowship Rock Springs)

    But why I mention that is what Wesley has done here is something I've seen a couple of times; from a "minister" in my denomination; from a well known person from the early 19th century; and here from Wesley. He accepted being a minister in a church yet openly disbelieved at least one of the doctrines of that church.

    That doesn't sit well with me. How about you?
    To a Calvinist the notion that God only chooses Jesus because he is pleasing and acceptable and rejects everyone else because they are displeasing and unacceptable may be the most despicable idea of all.

    Luke 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    From reading comments online and speaking to people over the years I have to disagree....the most offensive doctrine is that there is a hell and it lasts for eternity
    Many believers are rejecting it who don't equate it with election
    I suspect he meant "most offensive to believers", but are you saying that some "believers" are rejecting the doctrine of hell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    There are people who get upset after you share the gospel and then say 'you are now accountable to God if you reject his salvation'
    I remember witnessing to friend when I first got saved and he was furious with me and said....Why did you tell me about Jesus?
    He basically wanted to sin and not be accountable and thought if he hadn't heard the gospel God couldn't judge him
    Well I've a feeling that that idea is a question those who reject election have to contemplate. Giving they tend to believe in an age of accountability there's also the "total ignorance" question that can come up, it did in the RCC. I think Paul covered that in Romans 1 though doesn't he?

  5. #5
    Though to get to the end of the OP, what do you think of the idea of one having "accepted being a minister in a church yet openly disbelieved at least one of the doctrines of that church"?

  6. #6
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Though to get to the end of the OP, what do you think of the idea of one having "accepted being a minister in a church yet openly disbelieved at least one of the doctrines of that church"?
    Is this "once a minister of the anglican church, always a minister of the anglican church, or else" ?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Is this "once a minister of the anglican church, always a minister of the anglican church, or else" ?
    No. But one source says that "Throughout his life, Wesley remained within the established Church of England, insisting that the Methodist movement lay well within its tradition".

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    No. But one source says that "Throughout his life, Wesley remained within the established Church of England, insisting that the Methodist movement lay well within its tradition".
    I suppose that he didn't think that the technical differences that you mentioned were essential. I'm not sure to which degree he intended to succeed with reforming the Church of England instead of starting something new. What you said suggests that he did at least desire that.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    ....but are you saying that some "believers" are rejecting the doctrine of hell?
    Some still believe all the other tenets of faith and people need Jesus to enter heaven but reject a eternal hell for the unbelievers as they get annihilated into nonethingness.

    Then others but have rejected hell but also embraced more liberal positions and become apostate

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Some still believe all the other tenets of faith and people need Jesus to enter heaven but reject a eternal hell for the unbelievers as they get annihilated into nonethingness.
    Sinners like that because it means that you don't have to worry because if you don't make it there are no consequences.

    It's a sorta rehash of the RCC's purgatory heresy where, if you don't make it but ain't really bad, you suffer to make you good enough then you get in.

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