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Thread: Keeping Claims Consistent

  1. #1

    Keeping Claims Consistent

    God is Just. Because He is Holy He cannot just appear Just but must be Just. Paul asks the Romans "There is no injustice with God, is there?" to which he responds, "May it never be!" (or as The Message probably says, "Dur! You an igiot or something?")

    So when we look at the question of how God can justly let sinners into heaven we look at imputation.
    (T)he term "imputation" has been used in theology in a threefold sense to denote the judicial acts of God

    by which the guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to his posterity;

    by which the sins of Christ's people are imputed to Him; and

    by which the righteousness of Christ is imputed to His people.

    The act of imputation is precisely the same in each case.

    It is not meant that Adam's sin was personally the sin of his descendants, but that it was set to their account, so that they share its guilt and penalty.

    It is not meant that Christ shares personally in the sins of men, but that the guilt of his people's sin was set to his account, so that He bore its penalty.

    It is not meant that Christ's people are made personally holy or inwardly righteous by the imputation of His righteousness to them, but that His righteousness is set to their account, so that they are entitled to all the rewards of that perfect righteousness. (line breaks mine for emphasis) Imputation Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary
    One of the other words we use is "justified", or as people are wont to say, "just as if I'd never sinned", and so it is.

    But as the quote says, "The act of imputation is precisely the same in each case". So things are Just because Adam's sin is imputed to his descendants; these sins are imputed to Christ; Christ suffers, dies and is raised again to pay for these sins; then Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who believe.

    The thing is, it would appear that you have to have all or nothing, you can't have Christ's righteousness imputed to you if you didn't first have Adam's sin imputed to you. As the quote says, "It is not meant that Adam's sin was personally the sin of his descendants", but as we're told in Romans 5 "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men".

    It's legal stuff. Because of what God and Jesus did you can be considered righteous. You were justified. However, that's because previously you were legally considered a sinner.

    So entered this from our old friend FB yesterday.

    Keeping Claims Consistent-capture-jpg

    The problem this is meant to illustrate is that you can't have the Just system of sin being imputed then righteousness being imputed if it doesn't apply to everyone. You also have to tell the Apostle Paul that he got his letter to the Romans wrong when explaining this, particularly when he said that "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men".

    Now I know some don't like this idea, and here are some recent quotes. But as the image states, doesn't that mean that people have to give up the idea of imputed righteousness, and if so, where would we be then?

    - I am very very sure that babies go to heaven and any other teaching that contradicts that is demonic
    - you believe a demonic doctrine
    - God sends babies to burn eternally because they were born in sin - that is what you want to believe to support your doctrine.
    - the belief that babies are in hell is pure demonic and you are too blind to see

    I can think of one possible solution, but do I dare mention it as it would be too much for some to handle. The solution is for God to sovereignly choose to save some simply because He chooses to do so. But as that idea has been called heresy here a number of times that can't be the solution can it?

    On a site about Systematic Theology we read this, "3. Systematic theology is a way of studying the Bible that attends to the unity of biblical teaching." How do we have unity here? Can we have unity between the ideas of an Age of Accountability and Original (imputed) Sin or are they mutually exclusive, one being Biblical and the other one not?


    10 Things You Should Know about Systematic Theology | Crossway Articles

  2. #2
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    God is Just. Because He is Holy He cannot just appear Just but must be Just. Paul asks the Romans "There is no injustice with God, is there?" to which he responds, "May it never be!" (or as The Message probably says, "Dur! You an igiot or something?")

    So when we look at the question of how God can justly let sinners into heaven we look at imputation.


    One of the other words we use is "justified", or as people are wont to say, "just as if I'd never sinned", and so it is.

    But as the quote says, "The act of imputation is precisely the same in each case". So things are Just because Adam's sin is imputed to his descendants; these sins are imputed to Christ; Christ suffers, dies and is raised again to pay for these sins; then Christ's righteousness is imputed to those who believe.

    The thing is, it would appear that you have to have all or nothing, you can't have Christ's righteousness imputed to you if you didn't first have Adam's sin imputed to you.
    Why not ?

    As the quote says, "It is not meant that Adam's sin was personally the sin of his descendants", but as we're told in Romans 5 "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men".
    Because they all sinned :

    Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned


    It's legal stuff. Because of what God and Jesus did you can be considered righteous. You were justified. However, that's because previously you were legally considered a sinner.

    So entered this from our old friend FB yesterday.

    Keeping Claims Consistent-capture-jpg

    The problem this is meant to illustrate is that you can't have the Just system of sin being imputed then righteousness being imputed if it doesn't apply to everyone. You also have to tell the Apostle Paul that he got his letter to the Romans wrong when explaining this, particularly when he said that "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men".

    Now I know some don't like this idea, and here are some recent quotes. But as the image states, doesn't that mean that people have to give up the idea of imputed righteousness, and if so, where would we be then?

    - I am very very sure that babies go to heaven and any other teaching that contradicts that is demonic
    - you believe a demonic doctrine
    - God sends babies to burn eternally because they were born in sin - that is what you want to believe to support your doctrine.
    - the belief that babies are in hell is pure demonic and you are too blind to see

    I can think of one possible solution, but do I dare mention it as it would be too much for some to handle. The solution is for God to sovereignly choose to save some simply because He chooses to do so. But as that idea has been called heresy here a number of times that can't be the solution can it?

    On a site about Systematic Theology we read this, "3. Systematic theology is a way of studying the Bible that attends to the unity of biblical teaching." How do we have unity here? Can we have unity between the ideas of an Age of Accountability and Original (imputed) Sin or are they mutually exclusive, one being Biblical and the other one not?


    10 Things You Should Know about Systematic Theology | Crossway Articles

  3. #3
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    I do hold to an age of accountability, and I do not believe in the doctrine of 'original sin' as it is taught in some circles.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Why not?
    Doesn't God have to act justly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Because they all sinned :

    Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
    As confirmed by Rom 3:9; Rom 3:10; Rom 3:23; Gal 3:22; Psa 14:1; Psa 53:1 etc.

    And therefore God has to send unregenerate babies/youth to hell or else He'd be unjust, yes?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I do hold to an age of accountability, and I do not believe in the doctrine of 'original sin' as it is taught in some circles.
    So there is another Scripture consistent, God being fully just understanding of the situation?

  6. #6
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Because they all sinned :

    Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Doesn't God have to act justly?


    As confirmed by Rom 3:9; Rom 3:10; Rom 3:23; Gal 3:22; Psa 14:1; Psa 53:1 etc.

    And therefore God has to send unregenerate babies/youth to hell or else He'd be unjust, yes?
    Read that bolded part carefully. Death spread when we sin. We all sin eventually due to the influence to sin that is in the world. That is what the age of accountability is all about. A person choosing to sin with knowledge for the first time. Babies are born innocent. God calls them innocent in the NT when speaking of them being sacrificed. Innocence hasn't sinned. How can a baby sin? They have no knowledge of right and wrong. Sin isn't like a disease that's passed down in the flesh or blood. Sin has no substance. "Sin is transgression of the law." A baby hasn't transgressed the law. But when the commandment comes, they understand that commandment, and break it, they die (Romans 7).

    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Babies are born alive to God. They are 'lit' at birth. Then they sin at an older age and death passes on to them. There is no need for an exception for them.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Read that bolded part carefully. Death spread when we sin.
    Then why do babies die if they don't sin?

    If you read a bit further Paul says in verse 18 "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men". That transgression was Adam's sin, and through it condemnation came to all men being removed only when we are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8)

    No, "Sin isn't like a disease that's passed down in the flesh or blood", it is a spiritual condition passed down to us from Adam.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Doesn't God have to act justly?
    In the sense that he doesn't judge one sinner as righteous and another one as unrighteous based on age ? Perhaps.

    As confirmed by Rom 3:9; Rom 3:10; Rom 3:23; Gal 3:22; Psa 14:1; Psa 53:1 etc.

    And therefore God has to send unregenerate babies/youth to hell or else He'd be unjust, yes?
    According to Romans 7:9-11 children don't sin until some time after they have become aware of the demands of the inner law written in their consciences. So if a baby dies before that then it's neither a sinner nor under the law and cannot be judged guilty.

  9. #9
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Then why do babies die if they don't sin?

    If you read a bit further Paul says in verse 18 "through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men". That transgression was Adam's sin, and through it condemnation came to all men being removed only when we are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8)

    No, "Sin isn't like a disease that's passed down in the flesh or blood", it is a spiritual condition passed down to us from Adam.
    Physical mortality is inherited automatically but inheriting that doesn't make one guilty of sin. Spiritual death comes to those who commit sin.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    In the sense that he doesn't judge one sinner as righteous and another one as unrighteous based on age ? Perhaps.
    And that is just? So a wicked 10 year old is righteous but a good 90 year old is unrighteousness?

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    According to Romans 7:9-11 children don't sin until some time after they have become aware of the demands of the inner law written in their consciences.
    Can you really take a personal statement of Paul and apply it like that?

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