Page 3 of 11 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 104

Thread: Keeping Claims Consistent

  1. #21
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    16,273
    Thanked: 14129
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    I don't see it that way Colonel. People sin because they have a sinful nature inherited in the womb.
    You can see this in Psalm 51.
    David says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    Someone said that the sin of David's mother is in view here, but that is wrong, for the entire context has nothing to do with David's mother.
    David is confessing his own personal sin throughout this section of the Psalms.

    Have mercy on me, O God
    ...blot out my transgressions.
    Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
    ...I know my transgressions.
    ...Against you...have I sinned.

    David is so overwhelmed with the consciousness of his own sin that as he looks back on his life he realizes he was sinful from the beginning. As far back as he can think of himself, he realizes that he had a sinful nature. In fact, when he was born or "brought forth" from his mothers womb, he was "brought forth in iniquity" (Ps 51:5).
    Moreover, even before he was born, he had a sinful disposition: he affirms that at the moment of conception he had a sinful nature, for "in sin did my mother conceive me" (V.5). Here is a strong statement of the inherent tendency to sin that attaches to our lives from the very beginning. A similar idea is affirmed in Psalm 58:3, "The wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth, speaking lies. Therefore, our nature includes a disposition to sin so that Paul can affirm that before we were Christians we were by nature children of wrath," like the rest of mankind (Eph2:3). I could go on extensively about the doctrine of sin, but I won't. Let me close this with another Scripture that points to God counting us guilty because of Adams sin. Its found in Romans 5:18-19:
    "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. Through the trespass of one man, many were made sinners. When Adam sinned, God thought of all who would descend from Adam as sinners. The Scriptures plainly "shut up all men under sin" (Gal 3:22).
    Really think about the ridiculousness of that. Sin in his mother's womb. Impossible.

    Many recognize David is speaking with hyperbole. Period. Using hyperbole to express how he feels about how sinful he is. That's all. Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Not a substance that is passed down through birth. A baby in the womb has not transgressed anything. Even a baby out of the womb. Death entered as Colonel said when one sins. That's a pretty plain scripture.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to fuego For This Useful Post:

    Colonel (06-08-2020)

  3. #22
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    Everett, Washington
    Posts
    1,629
    Thanked: 1786
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    Really think about the ridiculousness of that. Sin in his mother's womb. Impossible.

    Many recognize David is speaking with hyperbole. Period. Using hyperbole to express how he feels about how sinful he is. That's all. Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Not a substance that is passed down through birth. A baby in the womb has not transgressed anything. Even a baby out of the womb. Death entered as Colonel said when one sins. That's a pretty plain scripture.
    It sounds like you favor the Pelagian view? The teaching that Adams sin did not affect future generations.
    Sometimes the doctrine of inherited sin from Adam is termed the doctrine of "original sin." Yet, I have not used this expression. If this term is used, it should be remembered that the sin spoken of does not refer to Adams sin, but the guilt and tendency to sin with which we are born. It is "original" in that it comes from Adam, and it is also original in that we have it from the beginning of our existence as persons. When does a person become a person? Psalm 139 says God put me together within my mother's womb.
    A baby's heart begins to form at three weeks.
    At eight weeks, the baby's heartbeat has a steady rhythm.
    This is a person being formed in the mothers womb. I don't use the word fetus.
    There is to much Scripture to refute "inherited sin."
    Scripture reveals that even before birth, children have a guilty standing before God and a sinful nature that not only gives them a tendency to sin, but also causes God to view them as "sinners." "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me' (Psm 51:5).
    The Campbellite restoration movement which began in the early 1800's by Thomas and Alexander Campbell is a heretical teaching that denies "inherited sin" and says generational sin has no affect on man from the fall.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Smitty For This Useful Post:

    FunFromOz (06-08-2020)

  5. #23
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    16,273
    Thanked: 14129
    Blog Entries
    1
    Scripture reveals that even before birth, children have a guilty standing before God and a sinful nature that not only gives them a tendency to sin, but also causes God to view them as "sinners." "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me' (Psm 51:5).
    None of that is referring to the baby, but the mother. Again, in the other part of that David is using hyperbole to express what he's feeling about his sin.

  6. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    It sounds like you favor the Pelagian view? The teaching that Adams sin did not affect future generations.
    Yep, like the cat, the Pelagian heresy keeps coming back, it won't stay away.


  7. #25
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    I don't see it that way Colonel.
    You're arguing with the verse, not with me.

    People sin because they have a sinful nature inherited in the womb.
    You can see this in Psalm 51.
    David says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    Someone said that the sin of David's mother is in view here, but that is wrong, for the entire context has nothing to do with David's mother.
    David is confessing his own personal sin throughout this section of the Psalms.

    Have mercy on me, O God
    ...blot out my transgressions.
    Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
    ...I know my transgressions.
    ...Against you...have I sinned.

    David is so overwhelmed with the consciousness of his own sin that as he looks back on his life he realizes he was sinful from the beginning. As far back as he can think of himself, he realizes that he had a sinful nature. In fact, when he was born or "brought forth" from his mothers womb, he was "brought forth in iniquity" (Ps 51:5).
    Moreover, even before he was born, he had a sinful disposition: he affirms that at the moment of conception he had a sinful nature, for "in sin did my mother conceive me" (V.5). Here is a strong statement of the inherent tendency to sin that attaches to our lives from the very beginning.
    I find the above highly speculative.

    A similar idea is affirmed in Psalm 58:3, "The wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth, speaking lies. Therefore, our nature includes a disposition to sin so that Paul can affirm that before we were Christians we were by nature children of wrath," like the rest of mankind (Eph2:3). I could go on extensively about the doctrine of sin, but I won't. Let me close this with another Scripture that points to God counting us guilty because of Adams sin. Its found in Romans 5:18-19:
    "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. Through the trespass of one man, many were made sinners. When Adam sinned, God thought of all who would descend from Adam as sinners. The Scriptures plainly "shut up all men under sin" (Gal 3:22).
    "because all sinned" is from the same chapter. Romans 7:9-11 is also clear about the free will act involved in making people sinners.

  8. #26
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    It sounds like you favor the Pelagian view? The teaching that Adams sin did not affect future generations.
    Sometimes the doctrine of inherited sin from Adam is termed the doctrine of "original sin." Yet, I have not used this expression. If this term is used, it should be remembered that the sin spoken of does not refer to Adams sin, but the guilt and tendency to sin with which we are born. It is "original" in that it comes from Adam, and it is also original in that we have it from the beginning of our existence as persons. When does a person become a person? Psalm 139 says God put me together within my mother's womb.
    A baby's heart begins to form at three weeks.
    At eight weeks, the baby's heartbeat has a steady rhythm.
    This is a person being formed in the mothers womb. I don't use the word fetus.
    There is to much Scripture to refute "inherited sin."
    Scripture reveals that even before birth, children have a guilty standing before God and a sinful nature that not only gives them a tendency to sin, but also causes God to view them as "sinners." "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me' (Psm 51:5).
    The Campbellite restoration movement which began in the early 1800's by Thomas and Alexander Campbell is a heretical teaching that denies "inherited sin" and says generational sin has no affect on man from the fall.
    I believe that the sin nature is inherited physically from Adam and that it doesn't kill our spirits until we actually choose to commit sin, as described in Romans 7:9-11.

    The notion that someone is guilty of sin from conception and before choosing to sin in any form is against every principle of justice. It's no better than the notion that God chooses some individuals for salvation and some for damnation. One can get around it in the case of babies by postulating "an age of accountability" but it still leaves us with God condemning adults for something they were conceived with and according to acts that they literally cannot but do.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Colonel For This Useful Post:

    fuego (06-08-2020)

  10. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I believe that the sin nature is inherited physically from Adam and that it doesn't kill our spirits until we actually choose to commit sin, as described in Romans 7:9-11.
    Which is this is it not?
    Keeping Claims Consistent-capture-jpg
    List of Heresies | Monergism

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The notion that someone is guilty of sin from conception and before choosing to sin in any form is against every principle of justice. It's no better than the notion that God chooses some individuals for salvation and some for damnation. One can get around it in the case of babies by postulating "an age of accountability" but it still leaves us with God condemning adults for something they were conceived with and according to acts that they literally cannot but do.
    That expected response was addressed in Romans 9:14,16,18 where Paul says:

    (14) What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
    (16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
    (18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

  11. #28
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Which is this is it not?
    Keeping Claims Consistent-capture-jpg
    List of Heresies | Monergism
    No, it's not. I just said that the sinful nature is inherited from Adam. Is this the thread where you're going to prove that you are unable to comprehend the English language ?

    That expected response was addressed in Romans 9:14,16,18 where Paul says:

    (14) What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
    (16) So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
    (18) So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
    Which expected response is that ? Your mis-interpretation of what I said ?

  12. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    No, it's not. I just said that the sinful nature is inherited from Adam. Is this the thread where you're going to prove that you are unable to comprehend the English language ?
    But you also said that you believe "that it doesn't kill our spirits until we actually choose to commit sin".

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Which expected response is that ? Your mis-interpretation of what I said ?
    No it is Paul's response to your statement that:
    The notion that someone is guilty of sin from conception and before choosing to sin in any form is against every principle of justice.

  13. #30
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    Oslo, Norway
    Posts
    14,487
    Thanked: 5793
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    But you also said that you believe "that it doesn't kill our spirits until we actually choose to commit sin".
    And how does that qualify for the definition of Pelagianism that you quoted ? Please discuss my entire sentence and not just part of it in your answer.

    No it is Paul's response to your statement that:[/COLOR]
    The notion that someone is guilty of sin from conception and before choosing to sin in any form is against every principle of justice.
    How is that ? The verses from Romans 9 that you quoted mean that because you say so ?

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
You can stop worrying about unexpected, expensive repair costs with an extended service plan for your Volkswagen. We have service plans for all Volkswagen models including the popular Volkswagen Jetta.