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Thread: Keeping Claims Consistent

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Spiritual death comes to those who commit sin.
    Nope, spiritual death is inherited from Adam.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    And that is just? So a wicked 10 year old is righteous but a good 90 year old is unrighteousness?
    Please read that again, I basically agreed with you.

    Can you really take a personal statement of Paul and apply it like that?
    A what ? Should we define the rest of the chapter the same way, as "what applies to Paul but to noone else" ?
    And why would that be, because you say so ?

  3. #13
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Nope, spiritual death is inherited from Adam.
    "Because all sinned", which means that it's inherited when people actually sin.

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  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Please read that again, I basically agreed with you.
    Re-read. Sorry, my bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    A what ? Should we define the rest of the chapter the same way, as "what applies to Paul but to noone else" ?
    And why would that be, because you say so ?
    No, but verses 7 to 12 discuss the idea of the Law being sin and Paul says "May it never be!" (v7) He then speaks of how it related to him to show that "the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good". (v12)

  6. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    "Because all sinned", which means that it's inherited when people actually sin.
    I disagree, but that would include babies, yes? It does say "all sinned".

  7. #16
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Re-read. Sorry, my bad.

    No, but verses 7 to 12 discuss the idea of the Law being sin and Paul says "May it never be!" (v7) He then speaks of how it related to him to show that "the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good". (v12)
    Yes, the demands of the law stirring in his conscience should have made him want to comply to that (good and holy) standard, instead sin came alive and he acted upon it in defiance of his conscience.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I disagree, but that would include babies, yes? It does say "all sinned".
    In Jewish thinking, the Bar Mitzvah age makes one a man who is fully under the law (not just by way of circumcision as a baby), fully accountable and so on. I'm not saying that that is when everyone starts sinning. I'm merely saying that the idea is implicit in many statements. "because all sinned" doesn't mean "from the moment they were conceived". It does mean that when people are mature fully functioning adults then they have all sinned.

  9. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    In Jewish thinking, the Bar Mitzvah age makes one a man who is fully under the law (not just by way of circumcision as a baby), fully accountable and so on. I'm not saying that that is when everyone starts sinning. I'm merely saying that the idea is implicit in many statements. "because all sinned" doesn't mean "from the moment they were conceived". It does mean that when people are mature fully functioning adults then they have all sinned.
    OK, that statement seemingly makes sense.

    But then the Jews thought you got saved through the Law when it has always been by faith. One of Paul's problems was convincing saved Jews that the Gentiles didn't have to keep the Law to be saved.

  10. #19
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    OK, that statement seemingly makes sense.

    But then the Jews thought you got saved through the Law when it has always been by faith. One of Paul's problems was convincing saved Jews that the Gentiles didn't have to keep the Law to be saved.
    Gal 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
    20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
    21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
    22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

  11. #20
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    "Because all sinned", which means that it's inherited when people actually sin.
    I don't see it that way Colonel. People sin because they have a sinful nature inherited in the womb.
    You can see this in Psalm 51.
    David says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
    Someone said that the sin of David's mother is in view here, but that is wrong, for the entire context has nothing to do with David's mother.
    David is confessing his own personal sin throughout this section of the Psalms.

    Have mercy on me, O God
    ...blot out my transgressions.
    Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
    ...I know my transgressions.
    ...Against you...have I sinned.

    David is so overwhelmed with the consciousness of his own sin that as he looks back on his life he realizes he was sinful from the beginning. As far back as he can think of himself, he realizes that he had a sinful nature. In fact, when he was born or "brought forth" from his mothers womb, he was "brought forth in iniquity" (Ps 51:5).
    Moreover, even before he was born, he had a sinful disposition: he affirms that at the moment of conception he had a sinful nature, for "in sin did my mother conceive me" (V.5). Here is a strong statement of the inherent tendency to sin that attaches to our lives from the very beginning. A similar idea is affirmed in Psalm 58:3, "The wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth, speaking lies. Therefore, our nature includes a disposition to sin so that Paul can affirm that before we were Christians we were by nature children of wrath," like the rest of mankind (Eph2:3). I could go on extensively about the doctrine of sin, but I won't. Let me close this with another Scripture that points to God counting us guilty because of Adams sin. Its found in Romans 5:18-19:
    "Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous. Through the trespass of one man, many were made sinners. When Adam sinned, God thought of all who would descend from Adam as sinners. The Scriptures plainly "shut up all men under sin" (Gal 3:22).
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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