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Thread: One Bible, two different views.

  1. #41
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I think it's pretty simple. People who die without having committed sin end up in heaven. Their circumstances may differ a lot and that is tough luck. Being born in South America in 2000 BC didn't help much. Regarding small children, I don't think that parents' perceptions of their children as sinners necessarily reflects the nature nor the heart intent of the child. The four year old of a couple that I know does and says a lot of strange things but I don't perceive him as committing sin or being a sinner. God is the judge of all of that, regardless.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    People who die without having committed sin end up in heaven.
    Yet Scripture says in both the OT and NT that all have sinned.

  3. #43
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I take it, then, you don't believe a hunger for God leads to salvation. One can be saved without hungering for God.
    It CAN lead to salvation. It doesn't always because a person will not surrender to what they know they need to do to be saved. I'm sure hell is full of people that at one time hungered for God but never did anything about it. And I think a person can be saved without being 'hungry' for God. Think about a totally careless sinner if somebody invites to church and they hear a salvation message and the Holy Spirit convicts them and they receive Jesus. They really didn't go through a period of 'hunger'.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    It CAN lead to salvation. It doesn't always because a person will not surrender to what they know they need to do to be saved. I'm sure hell is full of people that at one time hungered for God but never did anything about it. And I think a person can be saved without being 'hungry' for God. Think about a totally careless sinner if somebody invites to church and they hear a salvation message and the Holy Spirit convicts them and they receive Jesus. They really didn't go through a period of 'hunger'.
    Well, if the Holy Spirit convicts them, that's a type of drawing--sensing one's need for cleansing from sin. But as to whether a person must be drawn to God...have a hunger for God, I consider these verses:

    You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13)

    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him (John 6:44).

    Is it then possible to become a believer without this drawing...without searching with all one's heart?

  5. #45
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Yet Scripture says in both the OT and NT that all have sinned.
    Rom 3:23 says that and verse 19 gives the context, it's speaking to those who are under the law. Those who are not yet under law (Rom 7:9-11) have not sinned yet.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    Well, if the Holy Spirit convicts them, that's a type of drawing--sensing one's need for cleansing from sin. But as to whether a person must be drawn to God...have a hunger for God, I consider these verses:

    You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13)

    No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him (John 6:44).

    Is it then possible to become a believer without this drawing...without searching with all one's heart?
    People can be drawn without feeling it then the result is that they eventually come to believe. Some can be convicted then resist for a while then give in to the conviction.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Rom 3:23 says that and verse 19 gives the context, it's speaking to those who are under the law. Those who are not yet under law (Rom 7:9-11) have not sinned yet.
    So because I've never been under the law I've never sinned, right?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    So because I've never been under the law I've never sinned, right?
    That's not how it works. The demands of the law, its spirit rather than its letter, are written in everyone's conscience. As Rom 7:9-11 talks about, when that stirs in a child then eventually sin also stirs and it ends up sinning against its conscience.

    Rom 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves,
    15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    You know that most non-Calvinists believe that young children that die are deemed innocent by God and go to heaven.
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    I know but that seems to me to contradict their "it has to be our choice", "God's unjust if He forces anyone" ideas. TT said I was picking out non-reformed specks, but to me the idea that God has very different rules for different folks based on age and mental ability seems to be a long bit of 4 be 2 in the non-calvinist system.


    Comments bumped as TT seemed to have missed this particular bit.

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