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Thread: One Bible, two different views.

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by WMBillPrice View Post
    All men everywhere are drawn of God. He does not draw just those whom He chooses to be saved. All men are drawn to repentance and faiht in Christ.
    In the WHO African Region 51 per 1000 live births die within a year (REF). What's the mechanics of them being "drawn to repentance and faiht in Christ"?

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I'm pretty sure that I'll find that I got some things wrong. I just wish that I already knew what that would be.
    Don't we all!

  3. #13
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Well we are told "The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, Even the wicked for the day of evil." (Prov 16:4)
    Why jump to the negative - it seems a default position of many Calvinists to only see judgement and harshness
    Do you read or speak from 1 Cor 13 where Paul says ...Love believes and expects all things - the Holy Spirit inspired that as well

    Why not say to those people who have not experienced God - I will pray that before your life ends you will experience his presence and love since 1 Corinthians 13 says God's love believes and hopes for all things

    Your DEFAULT position is automatically about God's anger, harshness and judgment - I find that spiritually abnormal

    A serious question - Do you operate that way with your children or grandchildren? Do you speak and show love and goodness to them or are their memories of you only hard, cold facts and warnings of judgment/harshness because if that is the major message it is unhealthy and instills ungodly fear and warps children.

    That is a big reason why many totally reject Calvinism - the major focus is cold, hard, robotic and legalistic just like the Pharisees

    That is not what Jesus displayed..he spoke tough and hard at times but he MANIFESTED love and compassion

    Do you want your children remembering you as cold, hard, legalistic dad/granddad if not why do you present God that way on this forum

    What do you want your children to say about you at your eulogy - would you prefer if its mostly how Dad displayed the love of Christ to us or Dad told us how we need to be ordained and chosen not to burn in hell and God demands holiness etc etc etc.

    From your previous messages I really don't care for the way you promulgate God and yes I believe and also have preached on hell and eternal judgment but the Calvinist way makes me gag

    You may not be cold, hard etc. in real life - if not.. why do you display that characteristic on this forum and worse display God like that

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by WMBillPrice View Post
    ... All means all! ...
    You do realise don't you Bill that the word pas in Greek has multiple senses?

    The words "world" and "all" are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is very rarely the "all" means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile ...
    Ref: Pas Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

    If we take the NAS renderings in alphabetical order we get:

    NAS Word Usage - Total: 1242

    1. all 731,
    2. all the things 7,
    3. all...things 1,
    4. all kinds 1,
    5. all men 14,
    6. all people 4,
    7. all respects 3,
    8. all things 126,
    9. all* 1,
    10. always* 3,
    11. any 16,
    12. any at all 1,
    13. anyone 3,
    14. anything 3,
    15. anything* 1,
    16. continually* 6,
    17. entire 4,
    18. every 128,
    19. every form 1,
    20. every kind 9,
    21. every respect 1,
    22. every way 2,
    23. everyone 71,
    24. everyone's 1,
    25. everyone* 1,
    26. everything 45,
    27. forever* 1,
    28. full 2,
    29. great 2,
    30. no* 15,
    31. none* 1,
    32. nothing 1,
    33. nothing* 1,
    34. one 4,
    35. perfectly 1,
    36. quite 1,
    37. whatever 3,
    38. whatever* 1,
    39. whoever 7,
    40. whole 18



    It is even translated "no" and "nothing"

    And of course whatever

    Pas Meaning in Bible - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard

  5. #15
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    In the WHO African Region 51 per 1000 live births die within a year (REF). What's the mechanics of them being "drawn to repentance and faiht in Christ"?
    The Calvinist God - The elect babies will go to heaven...the non-elect babies will burn in hell because God demands justice you wicked little babies

    The Real scriptural God - Let the little children come to me...the kingdom of heaven is full of babies and children who die as they are not held accountable before the age of accountibility


    The specific Calvinist God teaching above is from the pit of hell - satan came up with that and laughs as the gullible believe it

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Why jump to the negative - it seems a default position of many Calvinists to only see judgement and harshness
    You asked a simple question about God's plans for people, I gave you what God says about some. You realise about half the Bible is negative don't you?



    Have you recently read Genesis 2 TT? Here's verses 4 to 15.

    This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven. Now no shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to cultivate the ground. But a mist used to rise from the earth and water the whole surface of the ground. Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. The Lord God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden; and there He placed the man whom He had formed. Out of the ground the Lord God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.


    Now a river flowed out of Eden to water the garden; and from there it divided and became four rivers. The name of the first is Pishon; it flows around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. The gold of that land is good; the bdellium and the onyx stone are there. The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush. The name of the third river is Tigris; it flows east of Assyria. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.


    Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The Lord God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


    Now this was before Eve was created so before Gen 1:28 where God says to be fruitful and multiply. So in the first recorded words of God speaking to man there is the promise of punishment. That's a pretty negative start to human life isn't?

    Yes 1 Cor 13 speaks of love but what does that word mean TT? Some think lust is love. Some think same-sex perversions are love. Some think love means acceptance of everything a person does. Some think love never punishes. So when we talk about God's love without correcting people's misunderstanding, without putting it in the context that people are rebellious sinners under the wrath of God destined for hell we do a disservice to them. And knowing that people understand the word "love" so differently to what God means by it, we could be accused of lying to them.

    My (soon to be ex) pastor recently said that our church won't tell people that God punished people.

    I'm currently listening to this week's service and he talks about becoming a Christ follower andjust said that if you want to invite Christ into your life I want you to agree with this prayer I'm about to say. Nothing about being a sinner, nothing about repentance. And that is why a once vibrant spirit filled charismatic church is now dead, living only on it's reputation. And that's probably because no one looks too closely, or is a dead as we are themselves do can't see what's really there.

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    The Real scriptural God - Let the little children come to me...the kingdom of heaven is full of babies and children who die as they are not held accountable before the age of accountibility
    TT Bill said that "All men everywhere are drawn of God." Are you saying that's not true?

  8. #18
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post

    Yes 1 Cor 13 speaks of love but what does that word mean TT? S

    1 Cor 13 explains clearly what love is...why not renew your mind with those verses instead of default robotic ...wrath..anger....judgment... calvinism etc etc

    It's obvious Paul who Jesus appeared to had a appreciation of God's love...since you want to obey God why don't you meditate on this

  9. #19
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    TT Bill said that "All men everywhere are drawn of God." Are you saying that's not true?

    Great how you find specks in non-calvinist comments but miss the giant planks in the eyes of Calvinism ...please continue finding specks I'm sure God is pleased with you

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    I know a great many people who claim they have never felt drawn to God. I believe them.
    I don't. And 'drawn' might have more connotations than we think it does. I remember a person testifying that they got saved at a later age, and asked God why He had never 'drawn' him before. The Lord gave him a quick vision of him when he was 16 and somebody handing him a tract and him throwing it to the ground. That was an attempt to 'draw'. It's not necessarily a 'feeling' of being drawn.

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