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Thread: Why hasn't someone healed Ravi yet?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    Faith comes from hearing God's Word. (Rom. 10:17) If Paul had been preaching "repent of your sins" that wouldn't have brought the man faith for healing. Paul was probably preaching from Isaiah 53:4,5 about Jesus providing healing for us, in addition to paying for our sins. When the man heard that he got excited, and Paul told him how to act on his faith and activate his healing.
    Sorry, but how do you get that from "they ... fled to ... Lystra ... and there they continued to preach the gospel"?

    Now what you've said may be 100% true, but as it seems to also be 100% speculation it can't really be used to make a Biblical argument can it?

  2. #22
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    As far as I can tell Paul is preaching the Gospel, i.e. repent and be saved. Acts 14:6-10 says:

    they became aware of it and fled to the cities of Lycaonia, Lystra and Derbe, and the surrounding region; and there they continued to preach the gospel.


    At Lystra a man was sitting who had no strength in his feet, lame from his mother's womb, who had never walked. This man was listening to Paul as he spoke, who, when he had fixed his gaze on him and had seen that he had faith to be made well, said with a loud voice, "Stand upright on your feet."

    Yes the man is healed, but it says Paul is preaching the gospel does it not, not a "healing message"?
    That's another ridiculous anti-charismatic anti-healing idea, that "the gospel" doesn't include a "healing message" and that a "healing message" is necessarily something different.

    The fact that the gospel does include a healing message is found in the passage that I quoted in my previous post in this thread :

    Acts 10:36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—
    37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:
    38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

    That's another sign of a troll, someone who asks a question, receives an answer then carries on as if no answer was given.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Sorry, but how do you get that from "they ... fled to ... Lystra ... and there they continued to preach the gospel"?

    Now what you've said may be 100% true, but as it seems to also be 100% speculation it can't really be used to make a Biblical argument can it?
    You've created an incredible strawman argument here by defining "the gospel" as a non-healing message and then you can argue that whenever a passage says that they "preached the gospel" then they did not preach anything about healing unless it says so explicitly, even when an example of someone being healed physically is given in the same passage. Very few passages include verbatim quotes of everything that was preached in a specific situation and when they do include something that sounds like that (Paul's speech in Athens) it's most likely a small excerpt.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That's another ridiculous anti-charismatic anti-healing idea, that "the gospel" doesn't include a "healing message" and that a "healing message" is necessarily something different.

    The fact that the gospel does include a healing message is found in the passage that I quoted in my previous post in this thread :

    Acts 10:36 The word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ—He is Lord of all—
    37 that word you know, which was proclaimed throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee after the baptism which John preached:
    38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

    That's another sign of a troll, someone who asks a question, receives an answer then carries on as if no answer was given.
    Sorry Colonel, as I mentioned elsewhere I've been a bit busy lately. What that really means is that after a 28 day break I've worked 9 shifts in the last 10 days, half of them finishing at 11pm or later. I saw Jew and Greek's post and as it was easy to respond to I did.

    Elsewhere I said that starting with what I thought was correct information that found me my MIL's and her sisters graves, and the graves of their parents, led me to thinking that someone had been buried in my grave site. I was wrong. All the things that I "knew" that I'd relied on to get to those graves was actually not correct. Yes it provided the right answer in those cases, but the wrong way.

    So I don't see it as being anti- anything if I look for the Bible to actually say something before I consider it to be certain. Yes from the verse in Acts 10 you quoted we know that "Jesus of Nazareth ... went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil", but where does that say He preached healing? What did He say before He healed people? He did it, but I'm looking for somewhere where someone actually says something about healing.

    With respect to this, Peter said earlier in Acts 2:22 "Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst". The word attested means "provide or serve as clear evidence of" and what Peter is saying here is that the miracles Jesus did were evidence of who He said He was.

    About 30 years after this James (Jesus's brother) writes "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick". I don't see a suggestion of "healing ministries" in that verse. Or miracles either.

    If that's anti- and troll so be it.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    You've created an incredible strawman argument here by defining "the gospel" as a non-healing message and then you can argue that whenever a passage says that they "preached the gospel" then they did not preach anything about healing unless it says so explicitly, even when an example of someone being healed physically is given in the same passage. Very few passages include verbatim quotes of everything that was preached in a specific situation and when they do include something that sounds like that (Paul's speech in Athens) it's most likely a small excerpt.
    That's not how I see it Colonel.

    The Bible itself says that Jesus' miracles were to "provide or serve as clear evidence of" Jesus being who He said He was.

    The Bible also says that in association with the preaching of the Gospel people were healed.

    But I've yet to see, and so I'm asking, where does the Bible say that anyone preached a healing message? [note I'm not saying God doesn't heal]

    As we study the Reformation we find that one of the errors that had arisen were things like "rituals (e.g. not eating meat during Lent) and beliefs (e.g. the immaculate conception of Mary)" that had no basis in Scripture.

    Going down the double negative line with the Bible allows anything not specifically forbidden. This leads to some excesses that we are all aware of which people are not game to question because there's nothing to hold up as a measure of what is Biblically valid.

    We know that Scripture is profitable for teaching, for reproof, and for correction. We have to be careful then to not suggest that Scripture says things that it doesn't explicitly say.

    I was looking for something else (I think) but just found these:

    o- Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed
    Here it says that the signs were to confirm what was said.

    o- John 6:20 A large crowd followed Him, because they saw the signs which He was performing on those who were sick
    The Bible says Jesus was followed by people who saw signs of healing performed. It doesn't say that people followed because Jesus said "come and be healed".

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Sorry Colonel, as I mentioned elsewhere I've been a bit busy lately. What that really means is that after a 28 day break I've worked 9 shifts in the last 10 days, half of them finishing at 11pm or later. I saw Jew and Greek's post and as it was easy to respond to I did.

    Elsewhere I said that starting with what I thought was correct information that found me my MIL's and her sisters graves, and the graves of their parents, led me to thinking that someone had been buried in my grave site. I was wrong. All the things that I "knew" that I'd relied on to get to those graves was actually not correct. Yes it provided the right answer in those cases, but the wrong way.

    So I don't see it as being anti- anything if I look for the Bible to actually say something before I consider it to be certain. Yes from the verse in Acts 10 you quoted we know that "Jesus of Nazareth ... went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil", but where does that say He preached healing? What did He say before He healed people? He did it, but I'm looking for somewhere where someone actually says something about healing.

    With respect to this, Peter said earlier in Acts 2:22 "Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst". The word attested means "provide or serve as clear evidence of" and what Peter is saying here is that the miracles Jesus did were evidence of who He said He was.

    About 30 years after this James (Jesus's brother) writes "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick". I don't see a suggestion of "healing ministries" in that verse. Or miracles either.

    If that's anti- and troll so be it.
    Sure miracles are evidence of the general truthfulness of the gospel, they still are. That doesn't mean that that is their only purpose.

    Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
    17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:
    18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
    Because He has anointed Me
    To preach the gospel to the poor;
    He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
    To proclaim liberty to the captives
    And recovery of sight to the blind,
    To set at liberty those who are oppressed;

    19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
    20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him.
    21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
    22 So all bore witness to Him, and marveled at the gracious words which proceeded out of His mouth. And they said, "Is this not Joseph's son?"

    There is no mention of Jesus having performed miracles in that location before saying the above which makes his ministry in general a fulfillment of the prophecy, not whatever he had done in Nazareth on that day. Which actually amounted to very little if we go by other accounts of how things worked out in Nazareth.

  7. #27
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    That's not how I see it Colonel.

    The Bible itself says that Jesus' miracles were to [COLOR=#333333]"provide or serve as clear evidence of" Jesus being who He said He was.
    Where does it say that ? And given all the scriptures that I've quoted on the matter, what exactly qualifies as "a healing message" ? I'm thinking that you cannot see the forest for all the trees.

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  9. #28
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Almost all of the miracles of Jesus and the apostles amount to healings. If the purpose had been only to demonstrate the truthfulness of the gospel and not compassion or a generalized salvation that includes physical and emotional healing then they could have done whatever else instead, including signs, moving objects, flying around, anything basically. The Pharisees even asked Jesus for signs after having seen his healings and he told them that they would receive none. Jesus healed out of compassion.

  10. #29
    I just came across these interesting thoughts from Spurgeon

    "And it came to pass on a certain day, as he was teaching, that there were Pharisees and doctors of the law sitting by, which were come out of every town of Galilee, and Judaea, and Jerusalem: and the power of the Lord was present to heal them." — Luke 5:17.


    The Spurgeon Center

    |

    The Gospel's Healing Power



    A second remark arises from the text; THERE ARE SPECIAL PERIODS WHEN THE POWER TO HEAL IS MOST MANIFESTLY DISPLAYED. The verse before us says that on a certain day the power of the Lord was present to heal, by which I understand, not that Christ is not always God, not that he was ever unable to heal, but this, — that there were certain periods when he pleased to put forth his divine energy in the way of healing to an unusual degree. ...


    Any student of the world's history who has read it in the light of true religion will have observed that there have been favoured periods when the power of God has been peculiarly present to heal men. ...

    Observe that on the occasion mentioned in the text there was a great desire among the multitude to hear the word. In the opening of the chapter we read that they pressed upon our Lord by the sea. Further on we find them coming from all parts of the country in multitudes. Especial mention is made of doctors of the law and Pharisees, the last people to be impressed, who nevertheless, overcome by the common enthusiasm, were found mingling with the throng: we are told that the people thronged the house at such a rate that the palsied man could not be brought into the congregation except by the expedient of breaking through the roof.

    When God's power is moving, there will be a corresponding motion among the people; they will long to hear when God's power is with the speaker. ... where ministers do but preach simply and lovingly the gospel of Christ at this moment they find no lack of hearers. This is a sure sign that the power of the Lord is present to heal.

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  12. #30
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Luke 10:9 - and heal the sick there, and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.

    The above verse was not to the 12 but the 70 which means Jesus was sending out many to heal the sick and he specifically told them to declare the kingdom in conjunction with healing

    The gospel is the good news of the kingdom so healing is part of the good news

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