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Thread: Forseen as opposed to Forordained. How do you handle what this appears to say of God.

  1. #1

    Forseen as opposed to Forordained. How do you handle what this appears to say of God.

    I'd like to ask people something based on this post (which I've left a bit out of btw).

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    The Calvinist domination of the "Foreordain" narrative means that it "sounds right" and becomes "default" to many/most new believers, until they probe deeper.

    There are three major possibilities here, of which I excerpt from a larger article:

    Foreseen = God saw through the corridors of time who would believe and chose those individuals based on their "foreseen faith." (Classical Arminian)

    Foreordain = God set his love on certain unconditionally pre-selected individuals before the world began ("foreloved") and effectually works to change their hearts so that they want to come to Him for salvation. (Calvinist)

    But there is a THIRD (which I won't go into ...FFO)
    Obviously I believe the second option which is worded in the WCF like this
    God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty ... taken away.

    So in my belief, 1) God decided what would happen in the universe; 2) God created the universe; 3) Exactly as He's decided will happen does happen, including who will and won't be saved.

    The idea that "God saw through the corridors of time who would believe" has a couple of sticking points for me and I wonder how people handle them.

    Questions:

    1. When did God see through the corridors of time?

    Well surely He couldn't before "time" was created could He? (I may go back to that later), but that leaves three options does it not; a) between day one, the creation of the universe and day six, before He created man; b) between when He created man on day six and when man fell; or c) after man fell.

    If we go 1. a) between day one, the creation of the universe and day six, before He created man, there are a couple of obvious questions like i) Why did He go ahead creating man then? and ii) as man wasn't created yet could He have created them another way, cause if He can't then I'd have to ask if He really is God?

    If we go 1. b) between when He created man on day six and when man fell then doesn't that imply that God didn't know what He was creating, making Him, it would seem to me, less than God?

    If we go 1. c) after man fell then we not only have what we have in 1. b), but even after creating man God didn't know what He created. But then, if God could "look through time" now, why was He unable to in cases 1. b) and 1. a)?


    2. When did God decide that believing was the way to salvation?

    Many believe that "God saw through the corridors of time who would believe" but when did God come up with that idea? It's easy to quote John 3:16, but Jesus dying in our place; becoming sin; propitiation; the OT sacrificial system which was a mirror of the cross; etc. etc. are complicated, involved, but also very precise. And God had to come up with all this as well as setting "believing" as being the way in even though it looked, for a while, that keeping the Law was the way in. Did God think this all up between Gen 3:11 and Gen 3:13?

    3. Don't you and I exist only because of God's decision(s)?

    We are all descendants of Noah. If God had not wiped out ever one else in the flood (or rescued Noah's twin sister Nora and her husband and children instead [joke guys!]) none of us would exist. This introduces another problem to "looking through time". If God only decided at the time of Noah to destroy the world what would He have seen looking through time 2,000 years earlier? If He saw He'd take that option then (which means He took that option beforehand, but that's a tangent I won't go on) then doesn't God see that we exist before He sees that we believe? Even if we say they happen simultaneously we still only exist and are able to believe because God first chose that we'd exist.


    Johnathan said "The Calvinist domination of the "Foreordain" narrative means that it "sounds right" ... until they probe deeper."

    Meanwhile for me probing the idea that "God saw through the corridors of time who would believe" just brings up more and more questions.

    How do you handle it?


    A spanner? Maybe? On the sixth day when God created man He told him that if he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Of course God could see our future before he created (our) time. That merely implies that God was in a different location with a different "time" than the world he created with its time, the one we are placed in.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Of course God could see our future before he created (our) time. That merely implies that God was in a different location with a different "time" than the world he created with its time, the one we are placed in.
    Have to go to bed after asking this as it is nearly 10:30pm.

    Q: so he could see our future before Gen 1:1?

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    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    God is not trapped in time like we are. That is why we have accurate prophecy. It is through His Holy Spirit that future events have been revealed right down to minute detail.

    One of the main problems I have observed with Calvinists is that they cannot seem to separate foreknowledge from control. Just because God knows something is going to happen, and even in detail, it does not mean that He caused it to happen.

    God is in Charge, not in Control. He gave man dominion over the earth and everything on it. He set the parameters and we are supposed to operate within those given boundaries. When we color outside the lines we bring judgment/calamity upon ourselves.

    IF God were in complete control, then He is responsible for evil. We know from His word that He is not. All good things come down from Him.

    If mankind had never sinned, we would have never experienced the fallen world. We would not even know evil.

    The main thing that all this boils down to is this: FREE WILL.

    God created men and angels with free will. In His sovereignty He chose to allow us to make our own choices because He wanted our love.

    In the garden of Eden it was so simple: "If you love Me, keep My commands." And the only command was "Don't touch that one tree!".

    God was saying, "Prove your love for Me by obeying My one simple command; don't touch that tree!"

    But God isn't stupid. He knew that because He had given us FREE WILL, that we could and eventually would do our own thing and thus commit sin. That is why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    If man did not have FREE WILL Jesus would not have had to die. God knew it before hand, but God didn't kill Jesus. Man did.


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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Have to go to bed after asking this as it is nearly 10:30pm.

    Q: so he could see our future before Gen 1:1?
    Gen 1:1 could have taken place trillions of years after time was created, we don't know.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    God is not trapped in time like we are. That is why we have accurate prophecy. It is through His Holy Spirit that future events have been revealed right down to minute detail.

    One of the main problems I have observed with Calvinists is that they cannot seem to separate foreknowledge from control. Just because God knows something is going to happen, and even in detail, it does not mean that He caused it to happen.

    The same goes for Open Theists, they can't separate the two. The Open Theist then gets rid of foreknowledge and thereby he gets rid of control at the same time.

    What you describe is however the standard Arminian/Wesleyan/Pentecostal view.

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    Oz Said:
    "So in my belief, 1) God decided what would happen in the universe; 2) God created the universe; 3) Exactly as He's decided will happen does happen, including who will and won't be saved."

    This is EXACTLY the problem with portraying God as an EXHAUSTIVE, DICTATORIAL MICROMANAGER, especially with deciding Individual salvations.

    This concept belies many Scriptures where God is extending his hand, EXPECTING/OFFERING for all men to repent. It portrays God as a tyrant, where he SAYS he wants all to repent, yet witholds the full truth (God: I really meant only the Elect). IOW, not a truly valid offer!

    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 1 Pet 3:9

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    Oz Said:
    "So in my belief, 1) God decided what would happen in the universe; 2) God created the universe; 3) Exactly as He's decided will happen does happen, including who will and won't be saved."

    This is EXACTLY the problem with portraying God as an EXHAUSTIVE, DICTATORIAL MICROMANAGER, especially with deciding Individual salvations.

    This concept belies many Scriptures where God is extending his hand, EXPECTING/OFFERING for all men to repent. It portrays God as a tyrant, where he SAYS he wants all to repent, yet witholds the full truth (God: I really meant only the Elect). IOW, not a truly valid offer!

    The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 1 Pet 3:9
    Calvinists believe that everything is foreordained and they think it is scriptural which I disagree strongly with. Some Calvinists insist that God cannot but control everything and that is perhaps a bigger problem when discussing with them because now scripture on the matter becomes irrelevant and foreordination becomes fundamental instead.

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  13. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Calvinists believe that everything is foreordained and they think it is scriptural which I disagree strongly with. Some Calvinists insist that God cannot but control everything and that is perhaps a bigger problem when discussing with them because now scripture on the matter becomes irrelevant and foreordination becomes fundamental instead.

    The problem with only believing God foreknows but does not forordain is why pray? We can only pray with faith if we believe God has sovereignty over our situation and can actually do something about it in answer to our prayers. If God only foreknows, then it's pointless to pray. When we acknowledge God can answer our prayers, we're then departing from the idea of foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is weak belief. But trusting in God's sovereignty and ability to move in response to our prayers is an evidence of firm belief.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    The problem with only believing God foreknows but does not forordain is why pray? We can only pray with faith if we believe God has sovereignty over our situation and can actually do something about it in answer to our prayers. If God only foreknows, then it's pointless to pray. When we acknowledge God can answer our prayers, we're then departing from the idea of foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is weak belief. But trusting in God's sovereignty and ability to move in response to our prayers is an evidence of firm belief.
    I think those concerned with Calvin's definition of 'foreordain' is not in relation to prayer but in micro management of minute details.

    Example I gave previously...did God foreordain you to drink that water at 10am on 5-5-2020 which means he actually caused it and you do it OR did he in his omniscience foreknow you would do it and allows these free will choices

    IMO this occurs trillions of times every day by humans around the world as they make simple choices - is this choice God specifically compelling you to perform but you are totally unaware but you assume it is a free will choice

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