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Thread: Forseen as opposed to Forordained. How do you handle what this appears to say of God.

  1. #21
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    If God foreordains according to Calvin he therefore has made me type the below as I had no choice

    The God of Calvin is not the full expression of the Father...there are aspects of truth but there are also distortions
    and erroneous doctrines that need to be rejected



    Help meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....my fingers are out of control.
    I am foreordained to type this so am not accountable - I had to type in bold, underline, larger font and in the color blue yet all the time feeling groovy

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    If God foreordains according to Calvin he therefore has made me type the below as I had no choice

    The God of Calvin is not the full expression of the Father...there are aspects of truth but there are also distortions
    and erroneous doctrines that need to be rejected



    Help meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....my fingers are out of control.
    I am foreordained to type this so am not accountable - I had to type in bold, underline, larger font and in the color blue yet all the time feeling groovy
    TT, you keep ignoring what people say is believed, substituting your own ideas for reasons unknown.

    The first point of Chapter 3 of the WCF, - on the subject Of God's Eternal Decree states that:
    I. God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    Your fingers are under your control and God holds you accountable for everything you've written.

  3. #23
    There are examples in the Bible of how God has woven His eternal purposes into the free will of man. Take, for example, this passage from Acts 2. Note my highlight showing how the crucifixion itself was both a free will act of men, and yet the purposes of which were preordained by God. Where I've highlighted red, I know you'll focus on the "foreknowledge" aspect, but please note the "determined purpose" highlight as well. The blue highlight shows that this was a free will act of the men Peter is preaching to.


    22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.

    There are other instances in the Bible. Solomon's existence (his mother was Bathsheba, whom David took from Uriah). Consider Rahab. By her free will she was a harlot, but ordained by God's "determined purpose" to be a rescuer of His people. Consider Jonah. By his free will, he rebelled against God. And yet we read that through his disobedience, God saved the souls of a shipload of men. Satan schemes via man's "free will" but God has a "determined purpose" hidden within every scheme of man and Satan. Faith unlocks that purpose in our lives during times of adversity and personal turmoil.

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  5. #24
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    FFO and Bookman do you agree with what Femme said below

    either God is sovereign and MAKES things happen
    or He's sees the future but doesn't make anything happen.

  6. #25
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    The time between the two doesn't matter, just the relevant time, in this case before.

    So if God saw our future "before he created (our) time", before we existed, then God was limited to, and forced to, create what he saw, yes?
    Your statement assumes the non-existence of free will. God created free will whose operations cannot be pre-calculated but can be observed from outside time.

    Just so you know, I've talked to plenty of Calvinists that understood what I said just above just they insisted that God didn't or could not do that.

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  8. #26
    Have you ever planned anything? Your wedding; a holiday; a birthday party; even simply lunch?

    I planned lunch today based on something my wife heard this morning. To implement that plan I went and bought what we didn't have; cut; squirted; spread; cooked; assembled; and then more cooking. Those things were intermixed; done how and when I wanted; to achieve what I wanted. I discovered that it was actually quiet nice. Grand-kids liked it too; well 2 out of 3. I had to clean up afterwards too.

    I presume that none of you have a problem with that.

    So a great; holy; wonderful; just; all powerful; all knowing; absolutely super duper God has a plan; He wants to make something. Trouble is He has nothing to make it with as nothing yet exists. He can't go shopping, but being all powerful He simply speaks what He needs into existence.

    Now just like my lunch wasn't what I started with, so also what God wants isn't what He started with. And just as I had to cut; squirt; spread; cook; assembled; cook, there are steps to take God's creation to what He wants and being an all powerful, all knowing God He set it up to go through those steps. And unlike me who discovered that what I cooked for lunch today was actually quiet nice, God knows exactly what His end result will be and what it will be like. And there is a clean up at the end.

    Now what I don't understand is how it's OK for me and you to have a plan and implement that plan how we wish to, but that's not OK for God to do?

  9. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Your statement assumes the non-existence of free will.
    Nope. God made us and made our wills and does not violate it.

  10. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    FFO and Bookman do you agree with what Femme said below
    I'm not quite comfortable with the word "make." He USES all things that happens. I think that's apparent from Ephesians 1:11, which tell us: In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

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  12. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    This makes no sense to me if I'm reading it right. What does foreordain have to do with God answering prayer? If it's foreordained, there's no reason to pray.
    People say the same thing about evangelism. The reason we do it is because God commands us to as that is the way He has chosen to implement things.

  13. #30
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    People say the same thing about evangelism. The reason we do it is because God commands us to as that is the way He has chosen to implement things.
    Which will consequently accomplish nothing, the same number of people would have been saved if you hadn't evangelized at all. Or are you trying to manipulate God's "foreordination" ?

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