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the difference to me is, we see
either God is sovereign and MAKES things happen
or He's sees the future but doesn't make anything happen.
I agree with Smitty in that since God is outside the time/space continuum there is no past/future, that's where we are, it's our perspective.
I think there is enough Biblical evidence that He MAKES things happen, not just know what's coming.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Femme*
the difference to me is, we see
either God is sovereign and MAKES things happen
or He's sees the future but doesn't make anything happen.
I agree with Smitty in that since God is outside the time/space continuum there is no past/future, that's where we are, it's our perspective.
I think there is enough Biblical evidence that He MAKES things happen, not just know what's coming.
Femme
Why can't it be both per my example on drinking water at 10am on 5-5-2020.
Why does God need to make that happen ...does he lose his sovereignty if he allows humans to make certain choices
God is sovereign and yet in his sovereignty he can still fit in free will where he ordains it to take place.
The sovereignty of God isn't diminished by him saying "Under certain parameters I allow humans to make free will choices"
He still remains in control
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Administrator
Originally Posted by
Bookman
The problem with only believing God foreknows but does not forordain is why pray? We can only pray with faith if we believe God has sovereignty over our situation and can actually do something about it in answer to our prayers. If God only foreknows, then it's pointless to pray. When we acknowledge God can answer our prayers, we're then departing from the idea of foreknowledge. Foreknowledge is weak belief. But trusting in God's sovereignty and ability to move in response to our prayers is an evidence of firm belief.
This makes no sense to me if I'm reading it right. What does foreordain have to do with God answering prayer? If it's foreordained, there's no reason to pray.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Cardinal TT
I think those concerned with Calvin's definition of 'foreordain' is not in relation to prayer but in micro management of minute details.
Example I gave previously...did God foreordain you to drink that water at 10am on 5-5-2020 which means he actually caused it and you do it OR did he in his omniscience foreknow you would do it and allows these free will choices
IMO this occurs trillions of times every day by humans around the world as they make simple choices - is this choice God specifically compelling you to perform but you are totally unaware but you assume it is a free will choice
I do believe God does foreordain divine appointments at precise times. God is in the small things of life, as well as the big things. If, say, I had my water at 10 AM on 5-5-20 at a drinking fountain in a football stadium and met a person who I would lead to the Lord or who would have some profound effect on my life, that's God forordaining. And I think that happens more often than we realize. I imagine we've all had those seemingly small "coincidences" that worked to our favor in some unexpected way. Someone has wisely said coincidences are God's way of acting anonymously.
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Originally Posted by
fuego
This makes no sense to me if I'm reading it right. What does foreordain have to do with God answering prayer? If it's foreordained, there's no reason to pray.
God has chosen to work His will through the prayers of His people. But that doesn't at all diminish His sovereignty. As Watchman Nee wrote, "prayer is laying down the railroad tracks where the locomotive of God's will wants to go." It's when we believe God only foreknows that we see God diminished and prayer rendered of little effect.
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I remembered mathematics at school using brackets - a simple analogy that I see regarding sovereignty and free will
God's (Free will) Sovereignty
Free will works independently within its boundaries yet within God's Sovereignty - I see this at work in the scriptures
God as sovereign still has the authority to work inside man's free will to cause HIS WILL to be done
An example is the Apostle Paul - Paul was executing his free will to hate the church and to attack and imprison believers
God as sovereign broke into Paul's sphere of free will and interrupted his plans to humble him and cause him to repent
Paul using his free will responded and repented
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Originally Posted by
Bookman
I do believe God does foreordain divine appointments at precise times. God is in the small things of life, as well as the big things. If, say, I had my water at 10 AM on 5-5-20 at a drinking fountain in a football stadium and met a person who I would lead to the Lord or who would have some profound effect on my life, that's God forordaining. And I think that happens more often than we realize. I imagine we've all had those seemingly small "coincidences" that worked to our favor in some unexpected way. Someone has wisely said coincidences are God's way of acting anonymously.
That's a different argument and my example makes room for that when God decides to act but nonetheless man can chose to drink water independently as a choice of free will
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Banned
Originally Posted by
Colonel
Of course God could see our future before he created (our) time. That merely implies that God was in a different location with a different "time" than the world he created with its time, the one we are placed in.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
Gen 1:1 could have taken place trillions of years after time was created, we don't know.
The time between the two doesn't matter, just the relevant time, in this case before.
So if God saw our future "before he created (our) time", before we existed, then God was limited to, and forced to, create what he saw, yes?
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Administrator
Originally Posted by
Bookman
God has chosen to work His will through the prayers of His people. But that doesn't at all diminish His sovereignty. As Watchman Nee wrote, "prayer is laying down the railroad tracks where the locomotive of God's will wants to go." It's when we believe God only foreknows that we see God diminished and prayer rendered of little effect.
I still don't get it. Just because something is God's will doesn't mean it's foreordained. He wills that all come to the knowledge of the truth, but they don't. He wills all to be saved and delivered, but they're not. Of course that argument doesn't work if one is a Calvinist and believes God has already chosen who is going to be saved and going to hell.
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Banned
Originally Posted by
Jonathan david
This is EXACTLY the problem with portraying God as an EXHAUSTIVE, DICTATORIAL MICROMANAGER, especially with deciding Individual salvations.
Originally Posted by
Colonel
Calvinists believe that everything is foreordained ... Some Calvinists insist that God cannot but control everything ...
No example is perfect, but ...
This morning I switched on the kettle; selected the temperature (it has 6 settings); then did other things I had to do. While I was away the kettle, as per its design, heated the water to a predetermined temperature and held it there. I did not micromanagement it; I did not control it; I had a plan to get some water at my preferred temp for coffee, set it in motion, and let it happen. The kettle, by itself, took the water temp to the required level and maintained it there. No probs.
So at some point in "time" God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (who are spirits) decided that they'd create a physical thing which has been named the body of Christ made up of human beings who would spend eternity with God. So they decided exactly what they wanted, decided how it would be created, and started the process off, creating the universe and putting man in it. Then in the main they've let it go, only intervening at critical points like the flood.
Simples.
...FOF
DICTATORIAL: of or typical of a ruler with total power. God has total power. God demands total obedience. All descent will be punished. Also simples.
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