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Thread: Sound and/or False teachers.

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    A troll, according to the Cambridge dictionary, leaves an insulting or offensive message on the internet in order to upset someone, or to get attention or cause trouble. That is not my intention.

    (I'm glad I didn't respond yesterday. Maybe you'll understand that later.)

    This post sent me off on a tangent and I watched a bit (4 hours) of YouTube yesterday.

    But first some history which I suspect most in the Church don't know. If they do they haven't learnt from it. But if you look at history the people of God go through good times and bad times. We see it in Israel before the kings and Judah after the split. Most of the kings are evil; all Israel's were.

    And the same happens in the church. Moving away from God is why we needed the Reformation. It was happening again in the mid 1800's, and a Robert Schindler is said to have noted that if we trace the state of evangelicalism from the 1600's to the 1800's we note that every revival of true evangelical faith has been followed by a generation or two by a drift away from sound doctrine. It is consistent in history, we have a move of God then we drift away.

    So because of A.J.'s post I watched

    Then a panel discussion

    A response (which, I won't link to yet, came up so I watched it)

    Then a second panel

    And a second response.

    John MacArthur is asking some fairly basic questions. If the Charismatic movement is of God, then why is what is happening in those churches not lined up with what we see in the Word of God? In fact, why are some of the things that happen lining up with what happens in pagan religions?

    Now I may look for some better responses. The two that automatically came up on YouTube in a way mirror the issue. MacArthur and his guest's responses compared things to what the Bible says. The responses I watched talked about John MacArthur, and who his dad was, and said something like him being a fifth cousin of General Doug MacArthur which may explain why he's a grump (actually it didn't exactly say that, but something close) but John's the focus of the response. We see images of people dancing the hokey-pokey and claiming its worship; we see people running around the church like chooks with their heads cut off; and John asked "Is this Biblical?" and the response we get is "Well John is related to ...". The question isn't answered, let alone if the answer is claimed to be a "Yes", demonstrated to be Biblical.

    I heard a talk recently (yes a talk, not a sermon) by a guy who was talking about God being "generational". I guess he was trying to justify where his church was. He was/is totally ignorant of the idea that (just like businesses and other things not lasting) "every revival of true evangelical faith has been followed by a generation or two by a drift away from sound doctrine". His has. It's now dead. But he's a good speaker. He says things that make you comfortable. He might stay around for a while yet.

    The pope probably thought Martin Luther was a troll. If he had listened that pope (and many catholics) may not be now in hell.
    As the creator of the video you cite, I have to point out that you're referencing only the introductory video to John MacArthur where I mentioned his relation to Gen. MacArthur. I address his credibility in this video.



    And in this one.



    And although I didn't produce this video, I think it's worth a view. Johnny Mac claims he was with the brother of Medgar Evers in the aftermath of Dr. MLK's assassination, which Evers' brother disputes.


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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Well technically he didn't redefine Holy Spirit blasphemy to presently mean the opposite. But his followers may well hear him saying that when they listen to him.
    Exactly, hopefully I transcribe this properly:
    The leaders of Israel committed the unpardonable sin, and what was that unpardonable sin, it was attributing to satan the works of the Holy Spirit. Matt 12:31-32.
    Attributing to the Holy Spirit the works of satan, that's what's going on. Satan is alive and working in deception, false miracles, bad theology, lying visions, lying dreams, lying revelations, deceptive teachers who are in it for the money and power and satan is alive and well and the work of satan is being attributed to the Holy Spirit.
    "But his followers may well hear him saying that when they listen to him." Or his detractors?

  4. #33
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FunFromOz View Post
    Exactly, hopefully I transcribe this properly:

    "But his followers may well hear him saying that when they listen to him." Or his detractors?
    I think the message is pretty clear. "It's the Charismatics that are calling the devil the Holy Spirit and not us heresy hunters that are calling the Holy Spirit the devil." Even though the latter is precisely what the actual passages from scripture discuss, Pharisees calling the Holy Spirit the devil.

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  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    "Abandonment of the emphasis of God's sovereignty in salvation in favour of making man's will the deciding factor. That's exactly what we have in the charismatic movement"

    1 - Most Charismatics believe in Gods sovereignty (i.e, Jesus ultimate authority and reign), but typically not the Calvinistic version of "sovereignty = meticulous micromanagement."

    2 - Mans will is PART of the algorithm and is biblical. A-God offers salvation, B - Man realizes he needs a savior and humbly repents, C - God grants salvation.
    Given that God "foreordains whatsoever comes to pass" means He doesn't have to micromanage Jonathan. He's not in there tinkering all the time. He foreordained that I would type this before the foundation of the world and so I choose to do it.

    However at the same time as He "foreordains whatsoever comes to pass" in no way does He violate yours or my will. We choose what we do and are responsible for what we do. As I said, I'm choosing to type this.

    How is that possible? Sorry, it's beyond us. But the Bible teaches both so we have to accept both as being true, or call God a liar.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I think the message is pretty clear. "It's the Charismatics that are calling the devil the Holy Spirit and not us heresy hunters that are calling the Holy Spirit the devil." Even though the latter is precisely what the actual passages from scripture discuss, Pharisees calling the Holy Spirit the devil.
    Isn't he saying that being involved in "deception, false miracles, bad theology, lying visions, lying dreams, lying revelations, deceptive teach(ing)" while claiming such are from the Holy Spirit the blasphemy?

  8. #36
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    MacArthur blasphemes by saying ALL tongue talking and supernatural is of the devil
    What does he base his knowledge on except assuming he has 100% understanding of scripture - which is blasphemy

    Even if only one pente/charis had a supernatural real experience he blasphemes the Holy Spirit

    A false teacher in God's eyes would also include those totally rejecting any work of the Holy Spirit in supernatural activity which includes many cessationist leaders promoting lies to their followers

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  10. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    As the creator of the video you cite, I have to point out that you're referencing only the introductory video to John MacArthur where I mentioned his relation to Gen. MacArthur. I address his credibility in this video.
    Yep, I watched the second video as well. However as you seemed to again be addressing the man and not the Biblical correctness of what he's said I didn't watch any more of them.

    For instance at the start of video #2 in reference to the music of "Jesus Culture" John said "this is what Hindu's do, the mindlessness ...". Well now that you've quoted him, show that this statement is wrong. From the Bible. (If you did I apologise for missing it. It was nearly midnight when I watched it).

    Most of us with a spouse have found out that if they say "put on some music" or "let's watch a movie" what they mean is "put on some music that I like" or "let's watch a movie I'll enjoy watching". Well God has said a lot about worship, so if we're going to worship Him shouldn't we listen to what He's said and do what He likes?

    Do people really think that they can "worship" in a way that pagans worship pagan gods, and the Lord God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth will accept it? That's where the idea "strange fire" comes from. In Lev 10:1 we have two of Aaron's sons who offered incense with "strange (unauthorized, foreign, or profane) fire". God killed them saying "Among those who approach me I will show myself holy; in the sight of all the people I will be honored".

    I think there's a lot of scope in worship, but it has to be about God. First. On a particular "church" site we read "During the gathering, we'll have live music and sing. It's not as strange as it sounds – we've got a band and it's more like a concert than a religious ceremony." Like a concert? It's not there for you to enjoy guys, it for God to be honoured.

    If you have any videos where you address the issues from the Bible, exegesisly, I may take a look. Otherwise ...

  11. #38
    If you have any videos where you address the issues from the Bible, exegesisly, I may take a look. Otherwise ...
    I think you meant exegetically, and no I don't. The point of the video wasn't a defense of the Jesus Culture repertoire or their approach to worship. As I said, it was an introductory video to the man and his views for those who may not know much about him. That was simply a montage of Johnny Mac grumbling about Charismatics in general. Nice try at diversion, however. John MacArthur has no credibility. He lied about Joel Osteen's book, and he lied about being with Charles Evers when MLK was assassinated. Thirty years ago he was singing the praises of Chuck Smith, and in 2013 at the Strange Fire conference he was badmouthing his ministry claiming that they turned everything over to those filthy hippies. Thirty years ago he accepted the long ending of Mark 16 (despite the continuationist implications), but then a couple of years before the Strange Fire conference he decided that Mark stopped writing at verse 8. Maybe he has dementia, or maybe there's some other explanation, but his credibility is shot.

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  13. #39
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jew and Greek View Post
    John MacArthur teaches Lordship Salvation. He has actually stated that salvation is based on what you do. He has also said that you could take the mark of the beast and still be saved. He has also said that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is attributing the work of the devil to the Holy Spirit. He also says that Mark stopped writing at verse 8 in Mark chapter 16. He also says that Jesus didn't die for everybody.
    Todd Friel isn't really a teacher. He's a broadcaster who promotes people he likes and attacks people he doesn't like.
    R. C. Sproul believed in infant baptism, and called Arminianism "semi-Pelagianism". When asked if an Arminian could be saved his response was "barely".
    Paul Washer isn't really a teacher, although he does promote Lordship Salvation. He's a missionary and holiness preacher who's really big on condemnation.
    Phil Johnson is Johnny Mac's version of Ed MacMahon. He's a well compensated (and well fed) cheerleader for all things MacArthur.
    Ray Comfort says you have to use the Ten Commandments when you preach the gospel, and you need to tell people to repent of their sins in order to be saved.
    Vodie Baucham doesn't believe that Jesus died for everybody.
    James White doesn't believe that Jesus died for everybody.
    Justin Peters doesn't believe that Jesus died for everybody. He also believes that God only speaks through the Bible, and says that I Cor. 14:2 is referring to a pagan god.
    Costi Hinn doesn't believe that Jesus died for everybody. His claim to fame is he's Benny Hinn's nephew. Without that calling card nobody in the Reformed world would have ever given a holy hoot what he has to say about anything, considering his lack of credentials.
    Steve Lawson doesn't believe that Jesus died for everybody.
    Mark Spence works for Ray Comfort. Beyond that I don't know anything about him, but I assume that he just repeats what Ray says.
    John Piper says that God ordained 9/11 and every act of evil that has ever taken place, and it's all for His glory.
    H. B. Charles Jr. is a Calvinist. Don't know anything about him other than that.
    Charles Spurgeon was a great preacher with some good ideas and some nutty ideas.
    A. W. Tozer was a pretty good teacher.

    Certainly there's some bad teaching coming from those on the right, but none of them teach that Jesus didn't die for everybody, that God ordains evil, or that your works contribute to your salvation.
    Do you oppose using the 10 commandments as a mirror to show the lost their sin? It is a good tool. It is not the only tool, but an extremely effective one. I have used the commandments when presenting the gospel many many times. The gospel message is and always has been "Repent, and be baptized for the remission of your sins and you shall receive the promise of the Father." The 10 commandments can be used to show a person what exactly they need to repent from.

  14. #40
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    The guy heading up the panel in the last video is one of the most vitriol-filled people I've ever heard in other videos with those he doesn't agree with. I don't know whether it's this video or not but there is one where they're all laughing at some of the worship the charismatics do and making fun of how they do it. All in the name of God. It's sad.
    Isn't that Todd Friel? He is certainly vitriol-filled. It was when The Way of the Master was hanging out with him that I lost interest in watching any more of their videos. That whole bunch are poison as far as I am concerned.

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