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Thread: Paul's thorn in the flesh

  1. #1
    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Paul's thorn in the flesh

    *Moving these posts from another thread into a thread of their own:


    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    On CARM, I discussed Paul's tribulations a lot. I came to the conclusion that they involved what came about as a direct result of his being persecuted by men (who were sometimes in turn motioned by an angel of Satan) specifically for standing up for the name of Jesus. They did not involve anything else. Anything else than that we have release from in the atonement. Including becoming sick because we are preaching in an area where there is malaria etc. God will stop that, according to our faith. I have experienced this myself. He will not necessarily stop men who seek to persecute us for the sake of the name of Jesus. He might but there is no promise to that effect. To the contrary, the reaction of the persecutor becomes part of the contention for and against the gospel, the division between light and darkness. However much faith we have, we will not escape that fully.
    i disagree with u bro.... Paul himself had a thorn in the side whether it was poor eyesight, persecution by the pharisees, ot some other malformity Paul asked that it be taken away 3 times yet Jesus refused saying "my grace is sufficient for u!" to say that someone who is in the mission field wont get sick if they have the faith is really stretching it. 2nd Tim 4:20 says that Paul left Miletus leaving Trophimus sick there who was a companion to Paul in his journeys. why? certainly faith would have healed him...
    Last edited by krystian; 11-02-2015 at 09:37 PM. Reason: Splitting a thread

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    i disagree with u bro.... Paul himself had a thorn in the side whether it was poor eyesight, persecution by the pharisees, ot some other malformity Paul asked that it be taken away 3 times yet Jesus refused saying "my grace is sufficient for u!" to say that someone who is in the mission field wont get sick if they have the faith is really stretching it. 2nd Tim 4:20 says that Paul left Miletus leaving Trophimus sick there who was a companion to Paul in his journeys. why? certainly faith would have healed him...
    The scripture specifically says that the thorn in the flesh (which is something that irritates) was an angel of Satan. An angel of Satan is a spiritual being, it is not a disease or a malformity. Trophimus got sick but that does not mean that it was God's will that he should be. Everyone wasn't walking in perfect faith at that time just as everyone didn't walk in perfect holiness. One of Paul's coworkers even left him because he found a love for this world.

    In Paul's list of afflictions in 2 Cor 4 and chapter 11 (just before the mention of the angel of Satan) we see what this angel produced : persecutions of all kinds.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The poor eyesight thing is ridiculous. Paul wrote something in his own hand with large letters for emphasis and then people claim that he did so because his eyesight was poor. Some people are desperate to render the great apostle Paul as sick and a slave of sin at all times so that they can use that to promote that everyone else should be too. Satanic deception is what that stuff is properly named.

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    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The scripture specifically says that the thorn in the flesh (which is something that irritates) was an angel of Satan. An angel of Satan is a spiritual being, it is not a disease or a malformity. Trophimus got sick but that does not mean that it was God's will that he should be. Everyone wasn't walking in perfect faith at that time just as everyone didn't walk in perfect holiness. One of Paul's coworkers even left him because he found a love for this world.

    In Paul's list of afflictions in 2 Cor 4 and chapter 11 (just before the mention of the angel of Satan) we see what this angel produced : persecutions of all kinds.
    satan can afflict people n different ways including sickness, oppression, through other people, through direct attack.... satan did not always use persecution 2 further his cause. concerning Trophimus u said we should have enogh faith that we would be healed immediately. why the delay here? certianly Paul had the faith to heal him didn't he? again i think ur premise is stretching it here.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    satan can afflict people n different ways including sickness, oppression, through other people, through direct attack.... satan did not always use persecution 2 further his cause. concerning Trophimus u said we should have enogh faith that we would be healed immediately. why the delay here? certianly Paul had the faith to heal him didn't he? again i think ur premise is stretching it here.
    Where does it say that if we have enough faith then everyone else will be healed ? Scripture says that Jesus could not heal many in his hometown because of their unbelief. It also tells us to take the shield of faith and all the arrows of the evil one will be extinguished. You talk as if Satan can simply attack us any way he wants and then we will simply suffer whatever it is. That is defeatism. Satan is the one who has been defeated, not the child of God.

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    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The poor eyesight thing is ridiculous. Paul wrote something in his own hand with large letters for emphasis and then people claim that he did so because his eyesight was poor. Some people are desperate to render the great apostle Paul as sick and a slave of sin at all times so that they can use that to promote that everyone else should be too. Satanic deception is what that stuff is properly named.
    i did not say it was his eye sight i said it was speculated that it was. big difference. nobody said he was a slave 2 sin nor did anyone say he was sick all the time. but i think we agree to disagree here.....

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheeze View Post
    i did not say it was his eye sight i said it was speculated that it was. big difference. nobody said he was a slave 2 sin nor did anyone say he was sick all the time. but i think we agree to disagree here.....
    I'm just telling you where that stuff is coming from, that's all.

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    Senior Member wheeze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Where does it say that if we have enough faith then everyone else will be healed ? Scripture says that Jesus could not heal many in his hometown because of their unbelief. It also tells us to take the shield of faith and all the arrows of the evil one will be extinguished. You talk as if Satan can simply attack us any way he wants and then we will simply suffer whatever it is. That is defeatism. Satan is the one who has been defeated, not the child of God.
    again bro u missed what i said but thats cool. we agree to disagree here as well...... congrats tho u keep me on my toes...

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    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    The issue with combining sickness in a bag with other types of suffering the scriptures talk about in context of service is two fold.

    1. Sickness is not included in those lists.
    2. There are too many scriptures specifically regarding healing and even Jesus' ministry demonstrate, IMHO that sickness is not part of that mixed bag.

    We do get sick because we live in this world and even the faithful can fall prey for various reasons but we have too much scripture and to many examples to conclude that sickness is 'suffering for Christ'. There is no scripture that seems to affirm that.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The thorn in the flesh that irritated Paul, the angel of Satan :

    2 Cor 12:8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me.
    9 But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
    10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

    He defines his weaknesses in the last verse : insults, hardships, persecutions, difficulties.

    He lists these in the previous chapter. In 2 Cor 4 he intermeshes the two, his weaknesses (insults, hardships, persecutions, difficulties) with the concept of the power and life of Christ working in him in the midst of those :

    2 Cor 4:7 Power : But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
    8 Persecutions : We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair;
    9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.
    10 Power in the midst of persecution : We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.
    11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus' sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body.

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