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Thread: Paul's thorn in the flesh

  1. #21
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    The issue with combining sickness in a bag with other types of suffering the scriptures talk about in context of service is two fold.

    1. Sickness is not included in those lists.
    2. There are too many scriptures specifically regarding healing and even Jesus' ministry demonstrate, IMHO that sickness is not part of that mixed bag.

    We do get sick because we live in this world and even the faithful can fall prey for various reasons but we have too much scripture and to many examples to conclude that sickness is 'suffering for Christ'. There is no scripture that seems to affirm that.
    This is the contention that produces what can rightfully be termed "suffering for Christ" :

    Mat 10:32 “Whoever acknowledges me before others, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before others, I will disown before my Father in heaven.
    34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
    37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

    Which produces insults and difficulties, sometimes hardships and persecutions. The kind that would have been absent if the name of Christ had not been invoked, which is precisely what qualifies it as suffering for Christ.

    If the suffering would have been the same in the absence of invoking the name of Christ then it is not a matter of suffering for Christ. Then it is just suffering and it is also a form of suffering that the promises contained in the atonement cover.

    The divide here is simple and clear.

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The divide here is simple and clear.
    Firstly I agree that the thorn that Paul had was not illness

    But not everything is that simple ...Paul mentions a possibility that one becomes sick for the work of Christ (yes I believe in healing atonement and we should resist all sicknesses)

    Php 2:27 For indeed he was sick, coming near death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
    Php 2:28 Therefore I sent him the more eagerly, so that you may rejoice when you see him again, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
    Php 2:29 Therefore receive him in the Lord with all gladness, and hold such in honor,
    Php 2:30 because for the work of Christ he was near death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.


    If God calls a missionary to minister somewhere and this person believes in the healing atonement but still gets seriously ill due to the many diseases that the locals have.
    It is easy for modern believers to talk about healing and visiting places but obviously they get all the typhoid, malaria, yellow fever, dysentry etc vaccines

    What happens to all the missionaries who never had a chance to get all their vaccines but still went in faith to minister the gospel and they brought their children....to me that is even greater faith

    Faith goes to places where there are ravaging deadly illnesses without vaccines

    My challenge..........go to Northern India to minister to the local heathens where the ceilings are covered in mosquitoes and do not take malaria tablets
    Then we can see who has faith and who is talk

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  5. #23
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I've actually taken malaria pills as a standard precaution when going to malaria-infested places. One time when I was away for over a month I started feeling bad and the feeling was increasing day by day. I was quite sure it was that pill that I was taking once a day. God told me it was okay to stop taking it so that is what I did. In faith. The problem ended after a couple of days. I don't see my taking the malaria pill to begin with as a lack of faith, it was sort of a no brainer. Kind of like getting or updating some vaccines now and then before going to third world countries. Eating whatever food they handed out to the locals in the middle of absolutely nowhere in Southern Ethiopia was also technically like asking for trouble but we were there for a reason and God kept us from getting sick from it.

  6. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Firstly I agree that the thorn that Paul had was not illness

    But not everything is that simple ...Paul mentions a possibility that one becomes sick for the work of Christ (yes I believe in healing atonement and we should resist all sicknesses)

    Php 2:27 For indeed he was sick, coming near death, but God had mercy on him, and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.
    Php 2:28 Therefore I sent him the more eagerly, so that you may rejoice when you see him again, and that I may be the less sorrowful.
    Php 2:29 Therefore receive him in the Lord with all gladness, and hold such in honor,
    Php 2:30 because for the work of Christ he was near death, not regarding his life, to supply your lack of service toward me.
    I'm not sure if you are aware of the fact that the word translated as "sick" here is the same word Paul uses when he says "when I'm weak then I'm strong". It is a very generic term that means weak as in feeble and it can imply sickness but it doesn't have to. It may very well be that your interpretation of the passage in question is correct but there could possibly be other reasons. He could have been beaten or even overworked. Or some combination of several factors.

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  8. #25
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    He could have been beaten or even overworked. Or some combination of several factors.

    The devil also brings illness just like he brings persecution. If someone is serving God and gets sick due to demonic attack and their body is run down are they not in one sense suffering because they were attacked with satanic illness due to ministering the gospel

    The devil hates us so if he attacks with direct illness to stop one sharing their faith isn't that a form of suffering

    My body at times has been attacked from a direct assault of the devil....yes I stood on the Word and claimed healing but nonetheless it was a battle

    It would of been much easier for me if someone just punched me in the face for preaching the gospel and everyone would of applauded how I suffered for Christ and yet I was at home all alone in a battle with satan over my body....which through Christ I won but the battle was more scarier than if someone had hit me

    BTW I have been physically attacked for the gospel and someone was violently trying to kick and strike me

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    The devil also brings illness just like he brings persecution. If someone is serving God and gets sick due to demonic attack and their body is run down are they not in one sense suffering because they were attacked with satanic illness due to ministering the gospel

    The devil hates us so if he attacks with direct illness to stop one sharing their faith isn't that a form of suffering

    My body at times has been attacked from a direct assault of the devil....yes I stood on the Word and claimed healing but nonetheless it was a battle

    It would of been much easier for me if someone just punched me in the face for preaching the gospel and everyone would of applauded how I suffered for Christ and yet I was at home all alone in a battle with satan over my body....which through Christ I won but the battle was more scarier than if someone had hit me

    BTW I have been physically attacked for the gospel and someone was violently trying to kick and strike me
    Eph 6:16 In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one

    We are empowered to overcome direct attacks from Satan, including sickness. In addition to general health and healing being in the atonement. The sword of contention that the gospel brings in relation to men is different, we aren't empowered to necessarily overcome that. Paul discusses reasons for the Corinthians getting sick then dying prematurely but he never discusses reasons why someone is persecuted by men and how to put an end to that, there simply is no promise to that effect. To the contrary, Jesus said that he came to bring that sword of contention, not to take it upon himself like he did with sickness on the cross, or to stand his ground against it all like he did with the devil's direct attacks and therefore we may share in the same power to overcome those.

  10. #27
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Getting punched in the head for sharing the gospel is far far easier than to get typhoid in a jungle when trying to win tribal people.

    So I get a big reward for a few punches in the head for suffering but no rewards for getting typhoid especially when you did your best to resist it.

    Actually I believe God will reward faithful believers in eternity who did suffer with illness when going to preach the gospel to tribal people as their motive was not to die from sickness but the love of God for the lost

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Getting punched in the head for sharing the gospel is far far easier than to get typhoid in a jungle when trying to win tribal people.

    So I get a big reward for a few punches in the head for suffering but no rewards for getting typhoid especially when you did your best to resist it.

    Actually I believe God will reward faithful believers in eternity who did suffer with illness when going to preach the gospel to tribal people as their motive was not to die from sickness but the love of God for the lost
    Does one get rewards for suffering in relation to the gospel except when being persecuted ? I should think so. An other question is the attitude going into the act, to which degree it was in obedience to a specific call and to which degree it was in faith. One doesn't get the same rewards for acting presumptuously or according to own plans. Maybe someone else was better suited to the task.

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    ....who did suffer with illness
    That's OK, the Lord will wipe the tears away from their eyes after telling them "I paid for that on the Cross, you did not have to bare that".

    There's lots of Christians needlessly suffering with all the things Jesus paid for us to be free from... and it's not God's fault cause His Word teaches us how to walk free from these things.

    The Kingdom of God has to be taken by force... otherwise, 'ol slewfoot will cheat folks out of victory Jesus paid for them to have!

    Learning how how to rebel against hell is some of the most fun that can be had this side of Heaven.

    The way you hurt the devil is... don't do what he says!

  13. #30
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    There is a difference in 'suffering FOR Christ', the 'sufferings OF Christ' and 'suffer as a Christian' as stated in 1 Peter 4:16, Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

    Suffering FOR Christ could include sickness and disease (although it doesn't mean we still aren't redeemed from it and have a right to be healed). If I go to Africa say on a missions trip, to preach the gospel, etc, and get sick or a disease, I went over there FOR Him and suffered that. But this in NO WAY reflects His will where sickness and disease is concerned (which is 'by His stripes you were healed'). The same thing could happen to an unbeliever and he's suffering FOR whatever cause he went over there for. His cause could be a vacation. Again this is no reflection of what His will is.

    The sufferings OF Christ are what Christ suffered. We have no evidence He ever suffered sickness and disease.

    'Suffer as a Christian' has to do with things suffered specifically because a person is a Christian, i.e. persecution and reproach for the sake of the gospel. This cannot include sickness and disease because all people get sick, saints and sinners alike.

    Now why is it important to be clear about what Paul's thorn was? Because healing is a matter of faith, either the person doing the praying or the one receiving. And if one believes it is God's will for them to be sick, then it is hard for them to receive healing by faith. If one believes that sometimes it is God's will for a person to be sick, then it is hard for them to minister healing in faith. That wrong belief can be an obstacle that has to be removed for a person to receive healing by their own faith, or minister healing in faith. That's why many of us are adamant about the subject of Paul's thorn. Many use this story as 'proof' that it's God's will for a person to be sick, because supposedly 'God gave' Paul the thorn which it does NOT say God did. It was given to him from satan, one of his personal messengers/angels.

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