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Thread: Holy Water

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    I think that guy milked a lot of money out of anyone that he could sucker back in the day.
    Noooooooooo....

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  3. #12
    Colonel: The closest we can get in the NT is probably the following :
    "Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness[f] to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. I'm not sure what it's supposed to mean, does anyone know ?"

    As evangelical scholar, F. F. Bruce explains in his Commentary on Hebrews [10:22]: "The terminology of the ancient ritual ablutions is used to describe God's inward cleansing of His people in the age of restoration."

    Ezekiel: "Yeah, to me all the pomp and circumstance of Catholicism looks exactly like a modernized version of OT Judaism."

    Your snarky anti-Catholic comment is refuted by your OT namesake, Ezekiel 36:25-26, which modern scholarship has identified as the background text for the NT text that Colonel rightly cites as the NT background for the Catholic use of Holy water:

    "I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you will be clean...A new heart also will I give you and a new Spirit I will put within you (Ezekiel 36:26-26)."

    The heart sprinking in Heb 10:22 picks up "sprinkle clean water" in the Ezekiel text and the phrase having our bodies washed with pure water" invites Christian ritualized application. The earliest reference to the application of Holy Water is found in Apostolic Constitutions (375 AD, which preserves long-standing Christian ritual practice:

    "XXIX. Concerning the water and the oil, I Matthias make a constitution. Let the bishop bless the water, or the oil. But if he be not there, let the presbyter bless it, the deacon standing by. But if the bishop be present, let the presbyter and deacon stand by, and let him say thus: O Lord of hosts, the God of powers, the creator of the waters, and the supplier of oil, who art compassionate, and a lover of mankind, who hast given water for drink and for cleansing, and oil to give man a cheerful and joyful countenance; do Thou now also sanctify this water and this oil through Thy Christ, in the name of him or her that has offered them, and grant them a power to restore health, to drive away diseases, to banish demons, and to disperse all snares through Christ our hope, with whom glory, honor, and worship be to Thee, and to the Holy Ghost, for ever. Amen."

    Notice that Apostolic Constitutions preserves the practice of healing anointment with oil practiced by Jesus (Mark 6:13) and advocated by James (5:16)." Why does Jesus use gimmicks like anointing with oil, saliva (Mark 8:23) and clay mixed with spittle (John 9:6-7). Jesus' use of oil, clay, and spittle is borrowed from their use for healing in contemporary folk magic. His Jewish critics wrongly dismiss Him as a magician. But Jesus is merely using these gimmicks as valves or points of contact to release faith because Jewish peasants believed in them. Catholic sprinkling with holy water must be understand as an application of the same principle that makes Jesus' use of these other gimmicks so effective. Holy water is an effective tool used in Catholic exorcisms. I know of 2 cases in which a Catholic exorcist succeeded where Evangelical exorcists had failed miserably!

    The premature ridicule from Pentecostal posters of a practice they don't understand is so typical of ignorant Pentecostal disdain for Catholicism.
    Last edited by Berserk; 01-16-2020 at 09:14 PM.

  4. #13
    Please be respectful of the forum and it's leaders. We have a Cardinal here who presides over sensitive spiritual issues and has authority to judge all things....

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  6. #14
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    @Berserk : Sprinkling of water okay but I was wondering about "our bodies washed with pure water". There were many ritual baths in the region at that time including that were used by Jews but I'm not sure about the significance.

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  8. #15
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LionHeart View Post
    Please be respectful of the forum and it's leaders. We have a Cardinal here who presides over sensitive spiritual issues and has authority to judge all things....
    There's also Pope Innocent Borgia I whom everyone thought was dead but who might resurrect himself again by way of some Catholic ritual unheard of since prince Vlad Tepes attempted to reverse an impaling that he became unhappy with in afterthought.

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  10. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post

    The premature ridicule from Pentecostal posters of a practice they don't understand is so typical of ignorant Pentecostal disdain for Catholicism.
    Premature? So it's totally ok for the Pentecostals to wait a little more before they ridicule?

    Do you fully understand AND participate in being PROTEST-ant?

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  12. #17
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LionHeart View Post
    Please be respectful of the forum and it's leaders. We have a Cardinal here who presides over sensitive spiritual issues and has authority to judge all things....
    Unless everyone behaves themselves I will have to make a Holy Church Edict to put all matters to rest
    Once this has been issued ex-communication will occur if any continue to contradict

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  14. #18
    FireBrand: "Premature? So it's totally ok for the Pentecostals to wait a little more before they ridicule?

    Your mocking disdain masks your typically Pentecostal close-mindedness exemplified by your unwillingness to postpone intellectual judgment until you actually consider the theological basis for Catholic distinctives.Once you educate yourself in this way, I'd hope for respectful disagreement rather than the unchristian didisdain you display.

    Firebrand: "Do you fully understand AND participate in being PROTEST-ant?"

    Yes, I have even served with YWAM [Youth with a Mission], witnessing to the Gospel across eastern Canada door-to-door and in the streets. I have even successful sued the Catholic church! But unlike most Pentecostals here, I also subscribe to honest engagement with Catholic apologetics and their biblical grounding.

  15. #19
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    I think that guy milked a lot of money out of anyone that he could sucker back in the day.
    Peter Popoff has been back for 10 years or longer misleading believers with his gimmicks.

    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  17. #20
    Smitty "Peter Popoff has been back for 10 years or longer misleading believers with his gimmicks.

    In the context of this discussion, your comment only makes sense if you are disparaging the example set by Jesus in His use of healing gimmicks like anointing with oil, spittle, or clay mixed with saliva. If that was not your intention, your comment is irrelevant to the issue in question.

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