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Thread: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

  1. #1

    Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

    The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoings committed during the relatively brief human lifespan.

    Hellfire believers insist that the wicked will literally experience pain while burning in literal flames of fire—after they have died. So that brings us to the questions below.


    DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
    1.
    Are there are scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If you believe that, please quote up to three (3) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse, along with a brief explanation for why you believe the verses are talking literal hellfire torment.


    2. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, only wicked people will wind up in hell. Is that what you believe?


    3. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in a burning hellfire if they aren't even aware?


    4. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to that effect to prove it (no more than 3 scriptures at a time, please). Follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


    5. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also, or does the term "soul" apply only to humans?


    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  2. #2
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Alter2ego
    Thanks for your question.

    Out of curiosity what particular church or denomination do you attend

  3. #3
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Before I answer your questions in the OP, please answer mine.

    Are you a Annihilationist ?

    If so, annihilationism is serious error because it leads unrepentant sinners to underestimate their fate.
    Would not the ungodly be more inclined to live in debauchery and sin their whole lives, without thoughts of God,
    if they expected after death to face ultimate extinction rather than eternal punishment in the lake of fire?
    Understanding that hell is eternal conscience punishment gives us a much greater appreciation of what we were saved from.
    It causes us to walk more in the fear of the Lord and avoid committing sin.

    "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul;
    but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"(Mt 10:28).

    "And by the fear of the Lord one keeps away from evil"(Pv16:6).
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Before I answer your questions in the OP, please answer mine.

    Are you a Annihilationist ?

    If so, annihilationism is serious error because it leads unrepentant sinners to underestimate their fate.
    Would not the ungodly be more inclined to live in debauchery and sin their whole lives, without thoughts of God,
    if they expected after death to face ultimate extinction rather than eternal punishment in the lake of fire?
    Understanding that hell is eternal conscience punishment gives us a much greater appreciation of what we were saved from.
    It causes us to walk more in the fear of the Lord and avoid committing sin.

    "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul;
    but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"(Mt 10:28).

    "And by the fear of the Lord one keeps away from evil"(Pv16:6).
    Smitty:

    The questions in my OP are based upon scripture from the Judeo-Christian Bible, which I will quote during this discussion. Asking me if I am an "annihilationist" hardly addresses a crucial issue raised in my OP, namely, would a God of Justice torture people for all eternity for sins committed during the relatively short human life span?

    "The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are JUSTICE. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; righteous and upright is he." (Deuteronomy 32:4)


    Neither does whether or not I am an annihilationist provide an answer to Question #3: "When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned?"


    Additionally, whether or not I am an annihilationist hardly answers Question #4: "Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames?"

    Those are only three of the five questions asked in my OP. Whether I am an annihilationist or not, or what my religious affiliationn is, will not have any effect on how you answer those questions. However, if your answers are not supported by Scripture, then you yourself will have to decide why you choose to ignore scripture for the sake of your personal religious philosophy. That is not something I, or anybody else can do for you. It is something you will have to do yourself, privately.

    So let me stress: This is not about me, but about what your own Bible says on the subject.


    Since all five of the questions in my OP require answers that are based upon scripture in the Judeo-Christian Bible; therefore, the Bible must be the authority in all of our discussions. Why so? Because the Judeo-Christian is the only common ground that Christians, regardless of denomination, have in common.

    "All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness," (2 Timothy 3:16 -- Holman Christian Standard Bible)


    Most Christians choose to follow traditions of men and will not budge from whatever it is they choose to believe--even when they are repeatedly contradicted by scripture. My question to those choosing to participate in the discussion of this topic is this: Are you willing to be corrected be scripture?


    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Alter2ego
    Thanks for your question.

    Out of curiosity what particular church or denomination do you attend
    Cardinal TT:

    I do not belong to any denomination. However, I am a Christian and have very high respect for God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.

    For more on my sentiments, see my response to Smitty at Post #4.

    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  7. #6
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Cardinal TT:

    I do not belong to any denomination. However, I am a Christian and have very high respect for God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible.

    For more on my sentiments, see my response to Smitty at Post #4.

    Alter2Ego
    Are you a Jehovah's witness ?

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    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    1. Jesus mentioned hell in 46 verses, and 18 of those verses were regarding the fires of hell.
    If you take the Word of God literally, then it is easy to arrive at an interpretation of literal fire.

    2. First of all, let me assure you God is not sending anyone to hell. All of us are already on the road to hell automatically (Eph 2:1-2, Jn 3:17-18).
    The Lord Jesus Christ suffered an excruciating death on the cross to keep us out of hell.
    If a person winds up in hell, its not because God sent them there. Its because they refuse to turn to Him for the forgiveness and the love provided them through the shed blood of His Son, Jesus.


    3. Jesus mentioned a certain (undeniable, indisputable, certain to happen) rich man who found himself in hell upon his death. People have said
    this is a parable which is error. The rich man actually lived at a time in history. Notice he said he wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue because he was
    tormented in this flame Lk 16:24). If this were only mental anguish or something other than real fire, then why did he crave water? He was indeed in real fire.

    4. A human being is triune, spirit, soul, and body (1 Thess 5:23). The soul is your intellect, mind, will, and emotions.
    Notice the rich man in hell had his memory intact because he was concerned (emotions) about his five brothers who were still alive coming to this place of torment (Lk 16:28).
    James mentioned in 5:20 "...he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death. Referring to spiritual death, or eternally
    lost which will result experiencing the second death, being cast into the lake of fire (Rev 20:13-15).

    5. Question 5 is also answered in #4.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  10. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    1. Jesus mentioned hell in 46 verses, and 18 of those verses were regarding the fires of hell.
    If you take the Word of God literally, then it is easy to arrive at an interpretation of literal fire.

    2. First of all, let me assure you God is not sending anyone to hell. All of us are already on the road to hell automatically (Eph 2:1-2, Jn 3:17-18). The Lord Jesus Christ suffered an excruciating death on the cross to keep us out of hell. If a person winds up in hell, its not because God sent them there. Its because they refuse to turn to Him for the forgiveness and the love provided them through the shed blood of His Son, Jesus.
    Smitty:

    You are ignoring the fact that Jesus always taught using illustrations. But since you appear to believe that the 46 verses where Jesus uses the word hell is with reference to literal fire, we can proceed with the discussion in which you provided scripture.

    I will address each of your scriptures in separate posts.


    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    3. Jesus mentioned a certain (undeniable, indisputable, certain to happen) rich man who found himself in hell upon his death. People have said this is a parable which is error. The rich man actually lived at a time in history. Notice he said he wanted a drop of water to cool his tongue because he was tormented in this flame Lk 16:24). If this were only mental anguish or something other than real fire, then why did he crave water? He was indeed in real fire.
    Smitty:

    Sorry to burst your bubble in which you insist the rich man was a real person and not part of a parable, but in fact, the story of the rich man and Lazarus was nothing more than a parable. I will explain to you why it was a parable after I quote the scriptural account below:

    "{19} "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. {20} And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, {21} who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. {22} The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, {23} and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. {24} And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' {25} But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. {26} And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' {27} 'Then I beg you, father,' he said, 'send Lazarus to my father's house, {28} for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' {29} But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' {30} And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'" (Luke 16:19-30 -- English Standard Version)

    Here are the clues that this is merely a parable aka illustration:

    The truth of the story relies on whether or not the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" actually existed. You claim that the rich man actually lived at a time in history. He did not. Since neither of them existed in real life, then neither of them could have literally gone to heaven or hell. You can search the Internet, and you will find website after website--including religious websites--acknowledging that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is nothing more than a parable. But since you believe it is not a parable, below are three questions for you, Smitty.


    QUESTION #1 TO SMITTY: The rich man asked for a drop of water to be applied to his tongue, despite the fact he was supposedly burning up in literal flames. What good is a drop of water to someone whose body is burning up?


    QUESTION #2 TO SMITTY: How is a drop of water supposed to survive evaporation from the heat of the flames and manage to reach the Rich Man from heaven all the way to the opposite location of hell (here on earth)?


    QUESTION #3 TO SMITTY: Are we to believe that hell and heaven are within talking distance, so as to accommodate the conversation between the Rich Man (who was in hell/hades on earth) and Abraham (who was in heaven)?
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  12. #10
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The story of the rich man and Lazarus may contain fictional characters even if the setting is real. The contemporary Jewish scholar Josephus uses the same elements in his description in "Discourse to the Greeks on Hades". He was describing the contemporary Jewish belief on Sheol which means that the setting was familiar to Jesus' audience and represents what they already believed. Since Jesus doesn't tell them anywhere that the setting is meant to be fictional, he's effectively confirming their own belief to them.

    How literal should it all be taken to be ? We know that the scene isn't found in a physical location. It's not somewhere inside the Earth nor is it found anywhere in this physical Universe. It's spiritual in nature and the fire and the water isn't physically real. It's still actual and is being experienced by human beings who are there in a non-physical form. If the characters involved in the story are fictional (Abraham is of course real but this storyline about him may be fictional) then the technicalities like distances and so on aren't that important, the story is meant to relate truths rather than functioning as a documentary of someone's afterlife.

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