Thread: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

Did the rich man ask Abraham to turn down the flames or to ask God to turn down the flames ? No and the reason why is obviously that the flames were intrinsic to that department of Hades (that's the Greek term used in this particular passage) and had nothing to do with God. Death doesn't have anything to do with God either. So when sinners, devils, Hades (including its flames) and Death are all cast into the lake of fire then God is dealing with all those things according to justice. Does that imply that things end well for those contained in the lake of fire ? No, it just means that the nature of this final judgment is different to what the dead experienced previously.

Isa 33:4 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

Hebrews 10:30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Some people want God to be super nice no matter what and if sinners are harmed then it's because He cannot but permit others to harm them. That's not what a Judge does. A Judge sees to that righteous judgment is executed upon those who have been sentenced. And that is what the lake of fire is about.

Still no response from Ezekiel to the three questions that I previously posed to Smitty. It seems neither Smitty nor Ezekiel are willing to reason on scripture by answering those three questions, as follows:

QUESTION #1 TO EZEKIEL: The rich man asked for a drop of water to be applied to his tongue, despite the fact he was supposedly burning up in literal flames. What good is a drop of water to someone whose body is burning up?


QUESTION #2 TO EZEKIEL: How is a drop of water supposed to survive evaporation from the heat of the flames and manage to reach the Rich Man from heaven all the way to the opposite location of hell (here on earth)?


QUESTION #3 TO EZEKIEL: Are we to believe that hell and heaven are within talking distance, so as to accommodate the conversation between the Rich Man (who was in hell/hades on earth) and Abraham (who was in heaven)?


In fact, I asked Ezekiel a fourth question based upon scripture at Romans, as follows:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23 -- New International Version)


QUESTION #4 TO EZEKIEL: Are you telling those reading this thread that death is NOT the opposite of life?



Both Smitty and Ezekiel fell silent when I asked them questions dealing with Jesus Christ's parable/illustration aka fictional story about a Rich Man (whose name was never given). According to the parable, the unnamed Rich Man was having a conversation with Abraham--AFTER HE DIED and was burning up in literal hell. Never mind that in the parable, Abraham and the Rich Man were thousands of miles apart (the Rich Man being in hell and Abraham being in heavenly paradise). How they could literally hear each others words from that distance is quite a challenge. Just as challenging is how a drop of water could survive evaporation, coming from such a distance (from heaven to hell) and then to top it off, survive evaporation from the burning flames of hell in order to reach the tongue of the Rich Man.

Something tells me I will be waiting indefinitely for Ezekiel to answer those questions.


Alter2Ego

Originally Posted by Alter2Ego

Still no response from Ezekiel to the three questions that I previously posed to Smitty. It seems neither Smitty nor Ezekiel are willing to reason on scripture by answering those three questions, as follows:

QUESTION #1 TO EZEKIEL: The rich man asked for a drop of water to be applied to his tongue, despite the fact he was supposedly burning up in literal flames. What good is a drop of water to someone whose body is burning up?
Sorry I didn't get back sooner. Have had a lot of other things going on. The fact that he cried out for even a drop of water shows how desperate and tortured he was.

QUESTION #2 TO EZEKIEL: How is a drop of water supposed to survive evaporation from the heat of the flames and manage to reach the Rich Man from heaven all the way to the opposite location of hell (here on earth)?
Now you are just being silly. You are totally missing the point that Jesus was making.

QUESTION #3 TO EZEKIEL: Are we to believe that hell and heaven are within talking distance, so as to accommodate the conversation between the Rich Man (who was in hell/hades on earth) and Abraham (who was in heaven)? We are to believe that Jesus said there was Abraham's bosom where OT saints awaited for the day of redemption, and then there was Hades, a place referred to as prison by Peter. Jesus went to both places during His 3 day burial. The rich man was a Jew so he would have understood perfectly that there were 2 different places to go to when your spirit left your body. The conversation as Jesus described it could have been the same as 2 people yelling back and forth across a gully.


In fact, I asked Ezekiel a fourth question based upon scripture at Romans, as follows:

"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23 -- New International Version)


QUESTION #4 TO EZEKIEL: Are you telling those reading this thread that death is NOT the opposite of life?

No one has fallen silent. Just that some of us have other responsibilities. You are forgetting that our spirits are given by God who is an eternal spirit. He breathed His Spirit into Adam. Our spirit is eternal. Angels are also eternal spirits. So what would a Just God do with eternal spirits who have not repented? Would He just let them wander about freely for the rest of time wreaking haavoc wherever they go? No! That would not be justice at all. And they would continue polluting His creation, the new Earth and it's heavens.

If you just ceased to exist, then why would God allow you to spend thousands of years in spiritual prison before getting rid of you once and for all?

Think about it. The wicked from the OT are in what Peter described as prison. The angels who sinned are also chained up and will one day be thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 tells us---"The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Both Smitty and Ezekiel fell silent when I asked them questions dealing with Jesus Christ's parable/illustration aka fictional story about a Rich Man (whose name was never given). According to the parable, the unnamed Rich Man was having a conversation with Abraham--AFTER HE DIED and was burning up in literal hell. Never mind that in the parable, Abraham and the Rich Man were thousands of miles apart (the Rich Man being in hell and Abraham being in heavenly paradise). How they could literally hear each others words from that distance is quite a challenge. Just as challenging is how a drop of water could survive evaporation, coming from such a distance (from heaven to hell) and then to top it off, survive evaporation from the burning flames of hell in order to reach the tongue of the Rich Man.

Something tells me I will be waiting indefinitely for Ezekiel to answer those questions.


Alter2Ego

I hope that helps you.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

Originally Posted by Alter2Ego

Still no response from Ezekiel to the three questions that I previously posed to Smitty. It seems neither Smitty nor Ezekiel are willing to reason on scripture by answering those three questions, as follows:

QUESTION #1 TO EZEKIEL: The rich man asked for a drop of water to be applied to his tongue, despite the fact he was supposedly burning up in literal flames. What good is a drop of water to someone whose body is burning up?

Sorry I didn't get back sooner. Have had a lot of other things going on. The fact that he cried out for even a drop of water shows how desperate and tortured he was.

Ezekiel 33:

You ignored my question completely. The questions is: What good is a drop of water to someone whose body is literally burning up? The Rich Man could just as easily have asked for a large bucket of water rather than a mere drop on his tongue (while the rest of his body continued to burn up). So how desperate and tortured could he have been if he was asking for the minimum in relief? The point being, your answer to Question #1 does not make much sense.

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

Originally Posted by Alter2Ego

QUESTION #2 TO EZEKIEL: How is a drop of water supposed to survive evaporation from the heat of the flames and manage to reach the Rich Man from heaven all the way to the opposite location of hell (here on earth)?

Now you are just being silly. You are totally missing the point that Jesus was making.

Telling me that I am being silly is not an answer, Ezekiel. Furthermore, we are not discussing what "point" Jesus was making. Since you insist the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a historical event, you need to explain how a drop of water could survive the distance from heaven all the way to earth--where the Rich Man was literally burning up in the fiery flames of hell. Thus far, you've given no logical answer to Question 1, and you evaded Question #2 entirely. Remember, we are supposed to be reasoning on the scriptures.


Alter2Ego

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

Originally Posted by Alter2Ego

QUESTION #3 TO EZEKIEL: Are we to believe that hell and heaven are within talking distance, so as to accommodate the conversation between the Rich Man (who was in hell/hades on earth) and Abraham (who was in heaven)?

We are to believe that Jesus said there was Abraham's bosom where OT saints awaited for the day of redemption, and then there was Hades, a place referred to as prison by Peter. Jesus went to both places during His 3 day burial. The rich man was a Jew so he would have understood perfectly that there were 2 different places to go to when your spirit left your body. The conversation as Jesus described it could have been the same as 2 people yelling back and forth across a gully.

Ezekiel:

You are ignoring the fact that in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, it was not Abraham's bosom (a location) that was having the conversation with the Rich Man. It was Abraham himself (the individual person) that was speaking to the Rich Man.

"{25}But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. {26} And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' (Luke 16:25-26 -- English Standard Version)


Likewise, it was not Abraham's bosom to which the Rich Man spoke. In the parable, the Rich Man was talking directly to Abraham. He even referred to Abraham as "father." Notice this fact as we pick up from verse 27, quoted below:

"{27} 'Then I beg you, father,' he said, 'send Lazarus to my father's house, {28} for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' {29} But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' {30} And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'" (Luke 16:27-30 -- English Standard Version


QUESTION #5 TO EZEKIEL: You stated at Post 86 that Jesus said Abraham's bosom is where "OT saints awaited for the day of redemption." In order for Abraham's bosom to be where "OT saints awaited for the day of redemption" would not Abraham's bosom have to be a location, rather than the individual person named Abraham? YES or NO.


Please provide scripture that supports your claim that Abraham's bosom is "where OT saints awaited for the day of redemption."


Looking forward to your reply.


Alter2Ego

I feel like a hamster on a wheel with this conversation. You just continue believing that there is no eternal place of torment and we can both pray that you don't have to experience the truth at the end of the age.

God bless

Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33

I feel like a hamster on a wheel with this conversation. You just continue believing that there is no eternal place of torment and we can both pray that you don't have to experience the truth at the end of the age.

God bless

That's why I took an early exit from this thread Ezekiel. Alter2Ego disregarded and completely ignored the Scriptures I posted in this thread.
Alter2Ego needs to ask the Lord to "Open (her/his) mind to understand the Scriptures" (Luke 24:45).
This verse implies an expression of a supernatural opening of the mind to understand the truth of Scripture.
One who doesn't understand the Scriptures is blinded to it's truth, and understands little or nothing.
I've witnessed this first hand when dealing with Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses.
They out right refuse to acknowledge the truth of Scripture when it's presented right before their eyes' in black and white.
Of coarse we know the devil is behind it. "Satan blinds the minds of them which believe not"... (2 Cor 4:4).
With all due respect to Alter2Ego, (not sure of gender) but he/she needs to have an Emmaus experience. (Luke 24:13-32)
And it came about that when He had reclined at the table with them, He took the bread and blessed it, and breaking it, He began giving it to them.
And their eyes were opened and they recognized Him and vanished from their sight (verses 30-31).