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Thread: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

  1. #51
    Smitty
    Without listening

    Why is the title ...There is no hell when he believes it
    Does he mention Jews and their salvation?

  2. #52
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    There is no Hell.

    "Theologically if there is no hell, what did Jesus die on the cross to save us from?"

    That succinctly blows away the error that there is no hell.

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  4. #53
    Administrator fuego's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Smitty
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    Why is the title ...There is no hell when he believes it
    It's a question, not a statement. :)

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  6. #54
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Jesus knew exactly what he was saying ...the way we live affects out eternal destination alot more than many people realise


    Apostle James confirms Jesus' words
    Jas 2:14 - What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
    Jas 2:15 - If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
    Jas 2:16 - and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?
    Jas 2:17 - Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    Jas 2:18 - But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
    One may argue that the rich man wasn't doing good works like helping the beggar at his gate and therefore he wasn't righteous according to works. But what good works did Lazarus perform ? Nothing that is mentioned, all he did was suffer.

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  8. #55
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fuego View Post
    I don't see it implied. But, if it is, he said that under the old covenant.
    The old covenant doesn't require suffering in order to be saved. The whole statement is a bit theologically fishy. That is, if we are to take it as an authorative statement made by the real person Abraham at a specific point in time - rather than a somewhat poetic statement included in a parable.

  9. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    One may argue that the rich man wasn't doing good works like helping the beggar at his gate and therefore he wasn't righteous according to works. But what good works did Lazarus perform ? Nothing that is mentioned, all he did was suffer.
    Jesus wants to offend the rich and warn them of false doctrine that riches and blessings are a sign of God's favour which is what the Jewish elite believed and the poor were cursed

    Its obvious Lazarus was a godly believer even though he was poor and Jesus was speaking to the lower classes saying just because you are poor doesn't mean God has forgotten you

    Lazarus was also ill and could not be expected to do much for God just stay faithful.
    The OT makes allowances for poor Israelites

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  11. #57
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Jesus wants to offend the rich and warn them of false doctrine that riches and blessings are a sign of God's favour which is what the Jewish elite believed and the poor were cursed

    Its obvious Lazarus was a godly believer even though he was poor and Jesus was speaking to the lower classes saying just because you are poor doesn't mean God has forgotten you

    Lazarus was also ill and could not be expected to do much from God just stay faithful.
    The OT makes allowances for poor Israelites
    Jesus is addressing riches and offending Pharisees in the previous parable in the same chapter so I suppose that turning things upsidedown can be seen as the immediate context of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Note that it can be said to function as a parable whether or not the characters or events contained in it are actual.

  12. #58
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Smitty
    Without listening

    Why is the title ...There is no hell when he believes it
    Does he mention Jews and their salvation?
    I don't agree with John Hagee on several fronts on what he preaches.
    The only reason I posted this video is because I agree with Hagee on what he says about hell and Luke 16.
    If you got a spare 30 minutes and don't mind listening to Hagee, this is one time he finally gets it right.
    No, he does not mention the Jews and their salvation in this video. He does offer some trinkets from Israel though for an offering.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  14. #59
    Senior Member Ezekiel 33's Avatar
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    Your questions start with "How could a loving God......." Let me explain it to you.

    Our spirits are eternal. They come from an eternal God. How could a JUST/RIGHTEOUS/HOLY God allow criminal spirits to roam about free and continue wreaking havoc for all of eternity? Angels are also eternal spirits. We know that many of them have been chained in the lowest parts of Hades waiting for the day when they will be dealt with. Why didn't God just wipe them out during the past several thousand years? Because they are eternal, just like us.

    God has declared that the wages of sin are death. God has declared that without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. God provided the perfect Sacrifice in Jesus Christ. He shed His perfect blood to pay our sin debt so that we do not have to be sentenced to an eternity in Hell. Why? Because He is a loving God. God shows His love in this; That while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. We were His enemies, at enmity with God because of our sins.
    When Jesus commanded us to love our enemies He was only telling us to do what He was doing.

    Paul tells us in Romans 8: "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

    While some have mistakenly used this passage to the demise of many to push their OSAS doctrine, it does not say that nothing can separate us from God. It says that nothing can separate us from the LOVE OF GOD.

    God loved us while we were yet sinners. God so loved the world that He sent Jesus to save us from our sins. We have never been separated from His love, not since the day we were born. And He will always love us.

    As a parent I have a son who spent 11 years in prison for his sins against society. Did his mother and I ever stop loving him? NO! We understood why he was in prison. We weren't happy that he was in prison. But we still loved him. And today while he is living a prodigal life we still love him. We pray for his precious soul to be saved.

    And so it is with our heavenly Father. Those who spend eternity in spiritual prison (Hell/the lake of fire) will still be loved because nothing can separate us from the love of God. But we separate ourselves from God when we do not accept the free gift of eternal salvation which He provided for us at a very high cost.

    Salvation is eternal. Condemnation is eternal. Because we are eternal beings. No one has to spend eternity in Hell. They go there by their own choice.

  15. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    The work being burnt up in that passage [1 Corinthians 3:15] is that person's teaching. Context will keep us steered in the right direction every time.
    Every Bible scholar recognizes the simplistic interpretive error of your statement. Yes, context is important, but not as important as the use of figures of speech like "saved so as by fire" in ancient culture.In ancient rabbinic Judaism this expression is used to refer to temporary consignment to Gehenna due to inadequate spirituality. As a former Pharisee, Paul is most likely to have learned this usage. For precise this reasons, Catholic Bible scholars rightly invoke this verse as part of their biblical justification for their doctrine of Purgatory.

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