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Thread: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post
    (1) "If the work is burned up, he will suffer loss, yet he himself will be saved, yet so as by fire (1Corinthians 3:15)."
    The meaning of the expression 'saved so as by fire" must be determined by its use in the culture of Paul's day. When considered in this light, it does not mean "saved by the skin of his teeth,
    but rather "saved by the purifying fire of Gehenna" (so several ancient rabbinic texts). For this reason, 3:15 has rightly been invoked by Catholics as part of their biblical justification for the doctrine of Purgatory.

    The Bible likes to use "fire" as an image of purification or purgation: e. g.
    (2) "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found to praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:7)."

    (3) "I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see (Revelation 3:18)."
    Other translations say "as through fire" which reminds me of someone who escapes unscathed from a burning building. Heb 12:29 says that God is a consuming fire and God is also pure which makes his nature that of a purifying fire. Since Hades itself is cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20, the lake of fire is consequently something that God has created and is something pure. But what effect does it have on the sinner ?

    Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; Fearfulness has seized the hypocrites: "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? Who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings?"

    It has the same effect as a furnace has on a lump that contains no metal but only dross, the dross just keeps burning.

    Psalm 119:119 You put away all the wicked of the earth like dross

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post
    (7) Are you aware the King James translation of "Sheol" as "Hell" is a mistranslation and that Sheol is not a realm of conscious intelligent existence?
    It certainly is, at the very least in the case of the OT saints, if we are to take the following passage seriously :

    1 Sam 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"
    "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."
    16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines."
    20 Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, filled with fear because of Samuel's words. His strength was gone, for he had eaten nothing all that day and all that night.

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  5. #23
    As I explained in my post, that story does not mean that Samuel had a conscious intelligent existence in Sheol.
    In the OT the righteous (Genesis 37:35) and the unrighteous (Numbers 16:30) alike go to Sheol.
    "The dead know nothing and even their memory is lost (Ecclesiastes 9:5)."
    "There is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (Ecclesiastes 9:10)."
    They have no memories, no awareness of God's presence (Psalm 88:6, 12), no ability to thank or praise God (Psalm 6:5; 30:9; 88:12-13; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 17:26-28), and no hope of resurrection (Job 7:9).

  6. #24
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post
    As I explained in my post, that story does not mean that Samuel had a conscious intelligent existence in Sheol.
    In the OT the righteous (Genesis 37:35) and the unrighteous (Numbers 16:30) alike go to Sheol.
    "The dead know nothing and even their memory is lost (Ecclesiastes 9:5)."
    "There is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (Ecclesiastes 9:10)."
    They have no memories, no awareness of God's presence (Psalm 88:6, 12), no ability to thank or praise God (Psalm 6:5; 30:9; 88:12-13; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 17:26-28), and no hope of resurrection (Job 7:9).
    That's a lot of ultra-literalism based on statements from poetic books. Are you sure you aren't one of those "fundamentalist Pentecostals" ? Why does the Septuagint translate Sheol as Hades unless they are the one and the same ?

  7. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That's a lot of ultra-literalism based on statements from poetic books. Are you sure you aren't one of those "fundamentalist Pentecostals" ? Why does the Septuagint translate Sheol as Hades unless they are the one and the same ?
    On the contrary, my summary is taken from standard scholarly sources and represents the modern scholarly consensus. It is the Fundamentalists who deny this summation of Sheol. Modern scholarship also recognizes that the concept of Hades has evolved in intertestamental Judaism by the NT era and is initially used in the Septuagint in a synonymous way with the portrayal I summarized.

  8. #26
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post
    On the contrary, my summary is taken from standard scholarly sources and represents the modern scholarly consensus. It is the Fundamentalists who deny this summation of Sheol. Modern scholarship also recognizes that the concept of Hades has evolved in intertestamental Judaism by the NT era and is initially used in the Septuagint in a synonymous way with the portrayal I summarized.
    In that case you're relying on scholarship that in general doesn't believe in the Bible and in particular almost anything allegedly going on before around 700 BC, which is from creation until some time after king Solomon. The Bible believer tries to see harmony between various accounts including in the OT, the unbelieving scholar typically sees disharmony whenever he can. For instance they read the various gospel accounts and even small differences lead them to disbelieve that the authors are describing the same event with any accuracy.

    Please reference a verse in the OT where the Septuagint translates Sheol into something different than Hades. Note that Hades was a place of conscious activity in Greek mythology and if the translators wished to keep Sheol distinct from that then they could easily have come up with a different term than Hades.
    Last edited by Colonel; 01-05-2020 at 03:38 PM.

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  10. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The story of the rich man and Lazarus may contain fictional characters even if the setting is real. The contemporary Jewish scholar Josephus uses the same elements in his description in "Discourse to the Greeks on Hades". He was describing the contemporary Jewish belief on Sheol which means that the setting was familiar to Jesus' audience and represents what they already believed. Since Jesus doesn't tell them anywhere that the setting is meant to be fictional, he's effectively confirming their own belief to them.

    How literal should it all be taken to be ? We know that the scene isn't found in a physical location. It's not somewhere inside the Earth nor is it found anywhere in this physical Universe. It's spiritual in nature and the fire and the water isn't physically real. It's still actual and is being experienced by human beings who are there in a non-physical form. If the characters involved in the story are fictional (Abraham is of course real but this storyline about him may be fictional) then the technicalities like distances and so on aren't that important, the story is meant to relate truths rather than functioning as a documentary of someone's afterlife.
    Colonel:

    I agree that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is merely a parable, meaning it is fictitious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The story of the rich man and Lazarus may contain fictional characters even if the setting is real. The contemporary Jewish scholar Josephus uses the same elements in his description in "Discourse to the Greeks on Hades". He was describing the contemporary Jewish belief on Sheol which means that the setting was familiar to Jesus' audience and represents what they already believed. Since Jesus doesn't tell them anywhere that the setting is meant to be fictional, he's effectively confirming their own belief to them.
    The setting, in which the fictional Rich Man was in hell while at the same time talking to Abraham (who was in "paradise" aka heaven) is not a real setting. Jesus was not "describing the contemporary Jewish belief on Sheol" because he was intent on teaching spiritual truths--which did not line up with the false religious doctrines of the First Century Jews. In fact, he condemned the Jewish religious leaders, referring to them as hypocrites while informing them (as he quoted the Prophet Isaiah) that they put traditions of men ahead of Jehovah's instructions, as noted below.

    "{6} he must not honor his father at all. And so you have made the word of god invalid because of your tradition. {7} You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you, when he said, {8} "This people honor me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. {9} It is IN VAIN that they keep worshipping me, because they teach COMMANDS OF MEN as doctrines." (Matthew 15:6-9)

    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  11. #28
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    That doesn't make any sense, Alter2Ego.

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  13. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Smitty:

    Sorry to burst your bubble in which you insist the rich man was a real person and not part of a parable, but in fact, the story of the rich man and Lazarus was nothing more than a parable. I will explain to you why it was a parable after I quote the scriptural account below:

    "{19} "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. {20} And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, {21} who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. {22} The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, {23} and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. {24} And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.' {25} But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. {26} And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' {27} 'Then I beg you, father,' he said, 'send Lazarus to my father's house, {28} for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' {29} But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' {30} And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.'" (Luke 16:19-30 -- English Standard Version)

    Here are the clues that this is merely a parable aka illustration:

    The truth of the story relies on whether or not the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" actually existed. You claim that the rich man actually lived at a time in history. He did not. Since neither of them existed in real life, then neither of them could have literally gone to heaven or hell. You can search the Internet, and you will find website after website--including religious websites--acknowledging that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is nothing more than a parable. But since you believe it is not a parable, below are three questions for you, Smitty.


    QUESTION #1 TO SMITTY: The rich man asked for a drop of water to be applied to his tongue, despite the fact he was supposedly burning up in literal flames. What good is a drop of water to someone whose body is burning up?


    QUESTION #2 TO SMITTY: How is a drop of water supposed to survive evaporation from the heat of the flames and manage to reach the Rich Man from heaven all the way to the opposite location of hell (here on earth)?


    QUESTION #3 TO SMITTY: Are we to believe that hell and heaven are within talking distance, so as to accommodate the conversation between the Rich Man (who was in hell/hades on earth) and Abraham (who was in heaven)?
    It wasn't a parable. Jesus didn't use names in His parables.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezekiel 33 View Post
    It wasn't a parable. Jesus didn't use names in His parables.
    I know I said I was going to exit this thread in my last post.

    But I can't help but agree with pastor smoke.

    I said it before, and I'll say it again, the certain rich man and Lazarus (not the one whom Jesus raised from the dead) the beggar is a true account of a real history of two men who lived at one time upon this earth. Some, however, contend that this is a parable.

    There are numerous arguments for this account being a real history.
    Parables are hypothetical illustrations and never name specific individuals as noted by pastor smoke.
    Here not only Lazarus is named, but also Abraham and Moses.
    Jesus said "there was a certain rich man." "Was there, or was there not? He definitely declared that there was."
    Moses, Abraham, and the prophets are real people, whereas parables never refer to specific Old Testament saints.
    Luke does not call this a parable as he does in thirteen other clear cases of parables that are recorded in his book.
    It is narrated like a real history.
    Parables deal with the commonplace of what is known to be true to illustrate moral lessons, and come from natural life. This does not.
    There is no reason why Jesus could not have in mind a particular case. He is describing what took place after death in the cases of two men.
    The conversation between the rich man and Abraham does not seem to lend itself to parabolic format.
    Therefore, I will conclude and wholeheartedly agree with brother smoke that it should be noted that this text spoken by Jesus, and penned by Luke, is not spoken as a parable.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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