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Thread: Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?

  1. #11
    Alter2Ego,

    Your questions can be most constructively pursued by addressing these 10 questions. It is past midnight on New Year's Eve. So I will simply pose these questions to see if there are enough intellectually curious and open-minded seekers on this site to motivate me to address them in detail biblically.

    (1) "Shall mortal man be more just than God (Job 4:17)?"
    What is your answer to this divine question to Job?
    (2) If God is pure unconditional love, would His love not express itself through reformative postmortem justice rather than just retributive justice?
    (3) If God is pure unconditional love and wants to save everyone, why should that divine quest be terminated by the sinner's death?
    (4) Are you aware of the implied biblical teaching that Hell is like an educational mirror that teaches its denizens what life would be like in a realm based on the principle that like attracts like?
    (5) Jesus' preferred word for "Hell" is "Gehenna." He prefers that word because He embraces the more hopeful and moral standard ancient rabbinic view of Hell. Have you considered the implications of this for your OP?
    (6) Are you aware that in both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("aionios") the word translated "eternal" often does not mean that? Can you see why this has implications for the morality of the standard evangelical belief in Hell?
    (7) Are you aware the King James translation of "Sheol" as "Hell" is a mistranslation and that Sheol is not a realm of conscious intelligent existence?
    (8) C. S. Lewis was one of the most respected evangelical authors of the 20th century. But he provocatively said, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." Do you know what he meant by that and what the biblical justification for his belief is?
    (9) id you know that C. S. Lewis believed in Purgatory? Most Pentecostals dismiss Catholic doctrinal distinctives as false man-made church traditions and are blissfully ignorant of how Catholic apologetics seeks to justify these distinctives biblically. For example, do you know how an informed Catholics would justify their beliefs in Purgatory from Scripture? Do you see the relevance of this question to your OP?
    (10) Are you aware of all the New Testament texts that teach the possibility of ultimate release from Hell?

  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    You should differentiate between Hades and "the lake of fire". They are quite distinct. Even the 1st century Jewish scholar Josephus talks about a lake of fire "into which noone has hitherto been cast" when he talks about Hades (Greek) / Sheol (Hebrew).

  3. #13
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    I suspect that you are a Jehovah Witness Alter Ego. You're posts give it away. If you are indeed a JW, you have been deceived by Watchtower propaganda and their false doctrine which is contrary to Scripture and the true word of God.
    All JW's I've encountered fight tooth and nail that Luke 16 is a parable. You are wrong and obviously misinformed.

    For instance, you say Abraham was in heaven. This is incorrect. Abraham was in paradise. Do you not remember that Jesus told His disciples, "Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whales belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Mt 12:40).

    The conversation Abraham and the rich man had was in a dividing area (great guff) between the torment side (Hades) and paradise side known as "Abraham's bosom". These are not fictional characters and this inter-action really took place between these two men in the "heart of the earth" (Lk 16:22-31).

    Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise (Abraham's bosom), not in heaven.
    As a matter of fact, while Jesus was there in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights, He preached to the spirits in prison (Hades) 1 Peter 3:19.
    I'm sure the rich man still there now in hell, heard His proclamation back then.

    When Jesus rose from the dead (resurrection) He emptied out "Abrahams bosom" (Mt 27:52-53) in which "paradise" was relocated to heaven.
    There is no more great gulf in hell. The whole region of hell is total suffering and misery in one whole place.

    One last thing! It wouldn't matter if it were a drop of water or a 55 gallon barrel of water that the rich man wanted. The point is, he wanted relief from the flame that he was in, and is still in at this very moment.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    I suspect that you are a Jehovah Witness Alter Ego. You're posts give it away. If you are indeed a JW, you have been deceived by Watchtower propaganda and their false doctrine which is contrary to Scripture and the true word of God.
    All JW's I've encountered fight tooth and nail that Luke 16 is a parable. You are wrong and obviously misinformed.

    For instance, you say Abraham was in heaven. This is incorrect. Abraham was in paradise. Do you not remember that Jesus told His disciples, "Just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the whales belly, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth (Mt 12:40).

    The conversation Abraham and the rich man had was in a dividing area (great guff) between the torment side (Hades) and paradise side known as "Abraham's bosom". These are not fictional characters and this inter-action really took place between these two men in the "heart of the earth" (Lk 16:22-31).

    Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise (Abraham's bosom), not in heaven.
    As a matter of fact, while Jesus was there in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights, He preached to the spirits in prison (Hades) 1 Peter 3:19.
    I'm sure the rich man still there now in hell, heard His proclamation back then.

    When Jesus rose from the dead (resurrection) He emptied out "Abrahams bosom" (Mt 27:52-53) in which "paradise" was relocated to heaven.
    There is no more great gulf in hell. The whole region of hell is total suffering and misery in one whole place.

    One last thing! It wouldn't matter if it were a drop of water or a 55 gallon barrel of water that the rich man wanted. The point is, he wanted relief from the flame that he was in, and is still in at this very moment.
    Smitty:

    I asked you three direct questions which you have refused to answer. I wonder why?


    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  6. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post
    Alter2Ego,

    Your questions can be most constructively pursued by addressing these 10 questions. It is past midnight on New Year's Eve. So I will simply pose these questions to see if there are enough intellectually curious and open-minded seekers on this site to motivate me to address them in detail biblically.

    (1) "Shall mortal man be more just than God (Job 4:17)?"
    What is your answer to this divine question to Job?
    (2) If God is pure unconditional love, would His love not express itself through reformative postmortem justice rather than just retributive justice?
    (3) If God is pure unconditional love and wants to save everyone, why should that divine quest be terminated by the sinner's death?
    (4) Are you aware of the implied biblical teaching that Hell is like an educational mirror that teaches its denizens what life would be like in a realm based on the principle that like attracts like?
    (5) Jesus' preferred word for "Hell" is "Gehenna." He prefers that word because He embraces the more hopeful and moral standard ancient rabbinic view of Hell. Have you considered the implications of this for your OP?
    (6) Are you aware that in both Hebrew ("amunah") and Greek ("aionios") the word translated "eternal" often does not mean that? Can you see why this has implications for the morality of the standard evangelical belief in Hell?
    (7) Are you aware the King James translation of "Sheol" as "Hell" is a mistranslation and that Sheol is not a realm of conscious intelligent existence?
    (8) C. S. Lewis was one of the most respected evangelical authors of the 20th century. But he provocatively said, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." Do you know what he meant by that and what the biblical justification for his belief is?
    (9) id you know that C. S. Lewis believed in Purgatory? Most Pentecostals dismiss Catholic doctrinal distinctives as false man-made church traditions and are blissfully ignorant of how Catholic apologetics seeks to justify these distinctives biblically. For example, do you know how an informed Catholics would justify their beliefs in Purgatory from Scripture? Do you see the relevance of this question to your OP?
    (10) Are you aware of all the New Testament texts that teach the possibility of ultimate release from Hell?
    Berserk:

    I asked five questions in my OP. I will answer your 10 questions when you answer my five.

    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  7. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Berserk:

    I asked five questions in my OP. I will answer your 10 questions when you answer my five.

    Alter2Ego
    The best answers to your 5 OP questions are given in appropriate answers to my 19 questions. Think about it. btw. conversations with souls trapped in Hades are commonplace in intertestamental Jewish apocalyptic. So though the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, it takes for granted ancient Jewish belief about the possibility of such conversations.

  8. #17
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berserk View Post
    The best answers to your 5 OP questions are given in appropriate answers to my 19 questions. Think about it. btw. conversations with souls trapped in Hades are commonplace in intertestamental Jewish apocalyptic. So though the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, it takes for granted ancient Jewish belief about the possibility of such conversations.
    How does that fit this from your post above ?

    (7) Are you aware the King James translation of "Sheol" as "Hell" is a mistranslation and that Sheol is not a realm of conscious intelligent existence?
    The 200 BC Septuagint translation translates the Hebrew word Sheol into the Greek Hades. What else would those Jewish apocalyptics be talking about ?

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  10. #18
    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter2Ego View Post
    Smitty:

    I asked you three direct questions which you have refused to answer. I wonder why?


    Alter2Ego
    I responded to your thread so please consider my exit from your thread. I will no longer waste my time with someone whose mind is already made up to what they believe.
    No matter what amount of questions I answer to your requests about Hell and eternal conscience torment that those who are there now suffering will satisfy you.

    Have a wonderful day and a Happy New Year Alter2ego.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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  12. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    I responded to your thread so please consider my exit from your thread. I will no longer waste my time with someone whose mind is already made up to what they believe.
    No matter what amount of questions I answer to your requests about Hell and eternal conscience torment that those who are there now suffering will satisfy you.

    Have a wonderful day and a Happy New Year Alter2ego.
    Smitty:

    It is unfortunate that you have chosen not to reason on the scriptures. Obviously, you have made up your mind that the Creator roasts the dead for all eternity LITERALLY--despite the fact there are no scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support what you have chosen to believe.

    Feel free to return to the thread if you change your mind.

    Alter2Ego
    "That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

  13. #20
    (1) "If the work is burned up, he will suffer loss, yet he himself will be saved, yet so as by fire (1Corinthians 3:15)."
    The meaning of the expression 'saved so as by fire" must be determined by its use in the culture of Paul's day. When considered in this light, it does not mean "saved by the skin of his teeth,
    but rather "saved by the purifying fire of Gehenna" (so several ancient rabbinic texts). For this reason, 3:15 has rightly been invoked by Catholics as part of their biblical justification for the doctrine of Purgatory.

    The Bible likes to use "fire" as an image of purification or purgation: e. g.
    (2) "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found to praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:7)."

    (3) "I counsel you to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that you may be rich; and white raiment, that you may be clothed, and that the shame of your nakedness do not appear; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see (Revelation 3:18)."

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