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Thread: Living in sin - the discrepancies part 2

  1. #1
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Living in sin - the discrepancies part 2

    Colonel : Can a person die having the Holy Spirit and genuine faith and still go to hell ?
    Victoryword : Yep. Live in sin, die in your sins, you go to hell.
    In Victoryword's second video on grace, he says :

    7:19 "Jesus has payed for your future sin but if you sin you still have to get back under the blood"

    I will assume that that qualifies as an answer to the question of why the person having the Holy Spirit and genuine faith when he dies is going to hell, that he is no longer under the blood of Jesus.

    In Victoryword's first video on grace he says that if someone commits adultery and dies of a heart attack while in the act, then he will go to hell.

    So I have the following questions :

    * What exactly is the difference between "committing a sin" and "living in a sin"

    Victoryword draws no line between committing adultery and "living in adultery" in his statement in the first video. Which leads to the next question :

    * Where is the line drawn between sins that qualify as sending one to hell merely by committing them, like adultery, and sins that only qualify as sending one to hell if one "lives in them" ? Which sins qualify for the one, which sins qualify for the other ?

    It seems quite clear from the Bible that a sinner will end up in hell for committing any sin and for any duration. If he never commits any sin and then commits whatever sin for whatever duration then dies, then he goes to hell. One of the epistles talks about the fact that if someone breaks whatever part of the law then he has broken all of it and has become guilty of murder. Which sin is committed has no bearing on the resulting condemnation.

    In the same way, if any sin is (on its own) sufficient to bring a Christian out from under the blood of Jesus and to a state where he is now going to hell, then every sin should (on their own) be sufficient to bring a Christian to the same state. Why would the blood of Jesus continue to cover one sin but not the other ? Why would there be a time delay involved, meaning the blood of Jesus continues to cover a sin committed but not when it has become a matter of "living in it" ?

    Again, if someone thinks that I'm trying to mess with someone by asking these questions, then no I'm not. I'm simply trying to figure out what it is that people actually believe.

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    FresnoJoe (08-01-2015)

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    Good questions. Several years back in a similar discussion, I asked which sin puts one over the line but received no answer. The parable of the sower comes to my mind every time this topic comes up. That answers it for me.

    If I really thought the folks on this forum were so wrapped up with their tally books of sins, I would feel hopeless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curly sue View Post
    Good questions. Several years back in a similar discussion, I asked which sin puts one over the line but received no answer. The parable of the sower comes to my mind every time this topic comes up. That answers it for me.

    If I really thought the folks on this forum were so wrapped up with their tally books of sins, I would feel hopeless.
    In the absence of an answer, the teaching defaults to being on one's way to hell for any sin committed for any duration with the possibility or greater probability of God making some sort of an exception in less severe cases. For the simple reason that that is how God treats sin per default, any sin committed for any duration will send the sinner to hell in the absence of grace. The adherant or listener is then left to speculate/assume/hope that the default is not valid in his or her specific case involving some or other sin and that staying away from "living in" sin and committing (what is assumed to amount to) "severe" sins will keep him or her on track for heaven at all times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curly sue View Post
    Good questions. Several years back in a similar discussion, I asked which sin puts one over the line but received no answer. The parable of the sower comes to my mind every time this topic comes up. That answers it for me.

    If I really thought the folks on this forum were so wrapped up with their tally books of sins, I would feel hopeless.
    :book2:

    Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9

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    Quote Originally Posted by FresnoJoe View Post
    :book2:

    Of sin, because they believe not on me; John 16:9
    Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin

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    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
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    “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John View Post
    “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
    That's a passage that is commonly used as a proof text by both Calvinists and OSASers. Jesus' speeches as recorded in the gospel of John are often difficult to understand. It is important to understand that Jesus was ministering to those among the Jews who followed Abraham in his faith and many of the Pharisees did not, they merely tried to keep the law plus their own commandments. When Jesus is talking about his "sheep" he is talking about these, not about "the elect". These are the ones God gives to him and they naturally come to him. By rejecting Jesus they would implicitly reject the faith of Abraham who waited for the promise of being perfected (Heb 11:40 or so).
    It is interesting that he says that he will never "drive them away". This seems to indicate that they are welcome as long as they wish to stay. It does not imply that they cannot leave of their own accord.
    His statement that he will never lose those given to him is often interpreted to mean that someone who is saved cannot be lost again. But this is not the context of his statement. The Jews were very interested in the physical resurrection from the dead and this is the context as his final statement indicates. It simply means that he will not lose any of those who are his to physical death. Though they die physically, he will raise them up again on the last day.

    There is nothing about unconditional election or OSAS in the passage. There is the statement concerning never driving those God has given to him away. It seems likely to me that it means that those who do keep with the faith and genuinely want to be his aren't cast out due to being found lacking in their walk. This is however one of those statements that are difficult to interpret accurately on their own, even in the local context, so it is best to look at this in the context of the entirety of the Bible and more specifically the new covenant, as Psalm 119:160 says, "the sum of your Word is truth".

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    Don't Ban me Bro! John's Avatar
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    > the sum of your Word is truth

    You have the letter of the law and the intent of the law.

    Understanding the Word goes beyond letters, to understand intent you must understand the character of He who wrote it.

    The bible does talk about an unpardonable sin, the rest, well I'm certainly not leaving that up to you.

    Matthew 7:11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what to make of your reply, John.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    I'm not sure what to make of your reply, John.
    I'm not surprised.

    Romans 2: 1-4 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
    I just think these "how you get to hell" topics are indeed showing a bit of contempt and as far as producing fruit, the opposite should be occurring, focusing on the goodness of God, which does lead to repentance.

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