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Thread: A passage on how to handle money

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Where does it say that he "exercised his rights" with the Philippians ? The translation of chapter 1 above is quite interpretative and then you apparently interpret that again to mean that Paul made them contribute money to him. This is what the NKJV says :

    Phil 1:7 just as it is right for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart, inasmuch as both in my chains and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers with me of grace.

    In chapter 4 he talks about them sending him gifts to cover his needs which is not a matter of him exercising a right to a salary. He and his coworkers were in prison for long durations and prisoners typically had to rely on being supplied by friends or family because the prison authorities would only supply them with a bare minimum to keep them alive. That is probably mostly what he is referring to since he tended to work with his hands to supply his own needs and was happy with that.

    In 2 Cor he does mention taking wages but not from the Corinthians :

    2 Cor 1:7 Did I commit sin in humbling myself that you might be exalted, because I preached the gospel of God to you free of charge?
    8 I robbed other churches, taking wages from them to minister to you.
    9 And when I was present with you, and in need, I was a burden to no one, for what I lacked the brethren who came from Macedonia supplied. And in everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and so I will keep myself.

    So it could be that what he's specifically referring to in 1 Cor 9 is avoiding taking wages from a church he is in the process of establishing, like here :

    1 Thes 2:9 For you remember, brethren, our labor and toil; for laboring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, we preached to you the gospel of God.

    It's clear however that Paul chose to work in order to supply his own needs to the extent that that was possible. That was impossible while in prison and also while travelling and then there were travelling expenses to take care of on top of that.

    There's nothing that suggests that he spent church money on his activities beyond a bare minimum. He could have "exercised his rights" to the max and for instance gotten his own "private ship" that would travel around the eastern Mediterranean as he directed but according to the verses in the OP, that would have "hindered the gospel".
    Just as I expected .. My intellectual Colonel sees only what he wants to see and fails to see the meat of the matter

    Read my post again . in Philippians 4 he referenced a time when he first began to preach the gospel and they partnered with him . He makes a distinction between the Philippians and other churches in partnering with him from the onset and because of them he abounded meaning he had surplus and he blessed them specially for it

    Once again the prosperity message is not for everyone . It's for the Phillipians . The Corinthians in 1st Corinthians were too carnal and the Thessalonians were too young

    Again the Kenneth Copelqnds and the Jesse duplantis never tell anyone about Jets or
    anything of the sort aside their PARTNERS . Those of them
    Who pastor churches don't even tell their local congregations and typically when hey go to poor newly established churches they are the ones bringing money like KC did for Rick Renner in the former Soviet Union

  2. #12
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAP View Post
    Just as I expected .. My intellectual Colonel sees only what he wants to see and fails to see the meat of the matter
    That's a ridiculous accusation. Instead of going with what the Bible actually does say about prosperity and related issues, you read something in that you want to be there then you call that "meat".

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by BAP View Post
    Just as I expected .. My intellectual Colonel sees only what he wants to see....
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That's a ridiculous accusation.
    Being intellectual?



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  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That's a ridiculous accusation. Instead of going with what the Bible actually does say about prosperity and related issues, you read something in that you want to be there then you call that "meat".
    I have told you before that your posts reek of intellectualism . You never meditate on anything long enough to see whats actually being said you before you start debating over hypothetical minutiae while intejecting your own biases

    For starters at no point did I say Paul MADE anybody contribute anything . What was clear was that with the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians he went out of his way to make sure he downplayed his rights to these things. With the Philippians on the other hand he encourages their partnership and reminds them emphatically of the rewards for it. That is what meant by he "exercised his rights" but in your typical borderline legalistic intellectualism you automatically assumed that I was saying that he forced them. Hence putting words in my mouth or should I say my fingers

    In 2 conrinthians his disposition is very different towards the Corinthians. He tells them :
    2 corinthians 8:7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace of giving also.I am not commanding you, but I want to test the sincerity of your love by comparing it with the earnestness of others.For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.And in this matter I give my judgment: this benefits you, who a year ago started not only to do this work but also to desire to do it.Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have..
    The point being that once they were Well established in the foundational things they should also become Excellent Practicipants in the Grace of Giving and then goes on to say that he wasn't commanding them as in compulsion but wants to use it as a measure of genuity relative to other churches .. He also Furhther noted that only a year ago they had started to give with a DESIRE to do so and he tells them it benefits them

    So again you can see that a distinction is been made between them and OTHER CHURCHES and there is an emphasis on non compulsion and willinngess . In essence he was now talking to them like he did the Philippians

  6. #15
    Per the thessalonian church you said

    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    1 Thes 2:9 For you remember, brethren, our labor and toil; for laboring night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, we preached to you the gospel of God.

    It's clear however that Paul chose to work in order to supply his own needs to the extent that that was possible. That was impossible while in prison and also while travelling and then there were travelling expenses to take care of on top of that.
    Here is the context


    (KJV)1 Thessalonians 1:6

    And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:
    (KJV)1 Thessalonians 2:14

    For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
    (KJV)2 Thessalonians 1:4

    So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
    The apostle Paul mentions a lot of afflictions that the church at Thessalonica had to endure,even though never mentions the actual incidents that took place.
    This is why he chose not to be burden them given that they were a young church undergoing persecution .

    The modern prosperity preachers that you criticize also do not believe in burdening anybody they believe in providing relief or support for those who just dont have it as I noted on another thread where i told you how how KCM helped Rick Renner get established in Eastern Europe or as Fuego pointed out KCM gave Bohnke use of their ministry jet.

    Point is partnership is not a one way street a point which you critics overlook cos out of small mindedness you are too caught up in the price of jets to get the picture.

  7. #16
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    It's not complicated....Paul did not receive at times and at times he did...Paul encouraged giving for and to others....supporting the ministry...

    There simply is no scripture that supports massive accumulation by anyone...

    IF the Spirit truly is leading someone to a particular ministry HE will put on hearts to supply that need...

    I believe there are likely a lot of ministries that are man made....

    EACH of us is obligated to be sensitive to the leading of the Spirit in our giving...period...


    If we encourage others to listen carefully for the Spirit and learn to discern emotional giving, manipulated giving for gain or guilt....hopefully less will be.

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  9. #17
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BAP View Post
    I have told you before that your posts reek of intellectualism . You never meditate on anything long enough to see whats actually being said you before you start debating over hypothetical minutiae while intejecting your own biases

    For starters at no point did I say Paul MADE anybody contribute anything . What was clear was that with the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians he went out of his way to make sure he downplayed his rights to these things. With the Philippians on the other hand he encourages their partnership and reminds them emphatically of the rewards for it. That is what meant by he "exercised his rights" but in your typical borderline legalistic intellectualism you automatically assumed that I was saying that he forced them. Hence putting words in my mouth or should I say my fingers

    In 2 conrinthians his disposition is very different towards the Corinthians. He tells them :

    The point being that once they were Well established in the foundational things they should also become Excellent Practicipants in the Grace of Giving and then goes on to say that he wasn't commanding them as in compulsion but wants to use it as a measure of genuity relative to other churches .. He also Furhther noted that only a year ago they had started to give with a DESIRE to do so and he tells them it benefits them

    So again you can see that a distinction is been made between them and OTHER CHURCHES and there is an emphasis on non compulsion and willinngess . In essence he was now talking to them like he did the Philippians
    The gift mentioned in 2 Cor 8 was to the poor saints in Jerusalem and Judea, not to Paul or his ministry as such. Paul and the apostles in Jerusalem had agreed previously that they should always remember the poor.

  10. #18
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    It's not complicated....Paul did not receive at times and at times he did...Paul encouraged giving for and to others....supporting the ministry...

    There simply is no scripture that supports massive accumulation by anyone...
    That even applied to the king of Israel, according to the law :

    Deut 17:14 “When you come to the land which the Lord your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,’
    15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.
    16 But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’
    17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.


    The common denominator of verses 16-17 seems to be personal wealth that isn't employed for any common good. So much for trying to become rich like king Solomon.

  11. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The gift mentioned in 2 Cor 8 was to the poor saints in Jerusalem and Judea, not to Paul or his ministry as such. Paul and the apostles in Jerusalem had agreed previously that they should always remember the poor.
    I knew you would say that but of course you overlooked the fact that the Phillipans were giving to Paul and as I noted earlier Jesus likewise had a huge donor base form which he in turn used to distribute to the poor so its a distinction really without a difference ..

    Whether it was for personal use or for redistribution the pattern was that the collective money went to the Apostles first .

    1 corinthians 16 1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. 4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

  12. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    That even applied to the king of Israel, according to the law :

    Deut 17:14 “When you come to the land which the Lord your God is giving you, and possess it and dwell in it, and say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,’
    15 you shall surely set a king over you whom the Lord your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.
    16 But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall not return that way again.’
    17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.


    The common denominator of verses 16-17 seems to be personal wealth that isn't employed for any common good. So much for trying to become rich like king Solomon.
    A ministry Jet is not massive accumulation. Its simply a tool ..An efficient mode of transportation. No different from a car

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