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Thread: 5:28-29 Salvation by Works?

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    5:28-29 Salvation by Works?

    In John 5:28-29 Jesus is in a debate with the Judean Jews, talking about the authority of the Son of Man to command the resurrection of the dead.
    He then adds a comment that refers to the two classes of resurrected people, not as believers and unbelievers, but as
    "those who have done good" and "those who have done evil."

    Does not this indicate that eternal life is given on the basis of one's deeds? Is this not the very salvation by works that Luther and the other Reformers were so much against?
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

  2. #2
    You can't make a doctrine based on one isolated reference. Yes, the saved people do good things, but as a fruit of Christ dwelling in them. Remember that Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. Without Him, we can do nothing good. As for "those who have done evil," that's because their sinful nature ruled their life, producing those evil works. The saved man or woman is led by the Spirit, not the old sinful nature. There are many places in the NT where salvation is shown to be by faith alone, but that faith is a faith that results in doing good. James tells us faith without works is dead. Good works don't result in salvation, they're the fruit of salvation.

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    Senior Member Smitty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookman View Post
    You can't make a doctrine based on one isolated reference. Yes, the saved people do good things, but as a fruit of Christ dwelling in them. Remember that Jesus is the vine, we are the branches. Without Him, we can do nothing good. As for "those who have done evil," that's because their sinful nature ruled their life, producing those evil works. The saved man or woman is led by the Spirit, not the old sinful nature. There are many places in the NT where salvation is shown to be by faith alone, but that faith is a faith that results in doing good. James tells us faith without works is dead. Good works don't result in salvation, they're the fruit of salvation.
    Thanks Bookie for your observation and excellent comment.

    As I was thinking about these two verses, I might add in John 5 Jesus has made it clear that the resurrection to life at the end of time is the logical conclusion of what He is doing now.
    After telling the Jews that the Father has given Him authority to raise the dead, He adds, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" (Jn 5:24). In other words, Jesus is able to grant eternal life now, so His resurrecting people at the end of the age is an extension into the kingdom age of what He has already done in the present age (the new birth). I notice that the only criteria for gaining eternal now is "hears My word and believes Him who sent Me." Of coarse, this "hearing" means not simply to listen to, but also to accept and submit to the teaching of Jesus. One who does this is in fact believing "on Him who sent Me," for the Lord makes it clear to reject Him is to reject the Father also.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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    Looking over at 2 Cor 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body,
    according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

    These are believers and it says that they are going to receive good and bad according to what he did in his Christian life before his death. Anyone have a comment just what the good and bad will be? I don't think it is a loss of salvation at this point because they made it to the judgment seat of Christ. This is not the great white throne judgment. Therefore, what is the bad thing the Lord will give to the Christian as well as the good?
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

  7. #5
    I think we need to factor in the possibility of heavenly rewards. Of course heaven is a reward in itself too.

    Matthew 5:11-12
    "Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great

    Matthew 6:20
    "But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal..."

    Revelation 22:12
    "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

    Philippians 3:14
    I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    Hebrews 11:26
    ...considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.

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    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Looking over at 2 Cor 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body,
    according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

    These are believers and it says that they are going to receive good and bad according to what he did in his Christian life before his death. Anyone have a comment just what the good and bad will be? I don't think it is a loss of salvation at this point because they made it to the judgment seat of Christ. This is not the great white throne judgment. Therefore, what is the bad thing the Lord will give to the Christian as well as the good?
    Many believers don't want to acknowledge that there will be chastening in heaven at the judgement
    God is love and everyone will know that but believers will still be rebuked and feel ashamed. God will humble some to reveal their prideful hearts and how they treated people on earth
    Even our very MOTIVES will be EXPOSED

    There will be certain blessings that will be withheld for periods of time

    When we stand before the ALL KNOWING God we can no longer pretend to be super spiritual or holy or anointed or powerful but our very lives will be exposed like a powerful spotlight. All fakery and pretense will flee


    Yikes


    When I was a young believer I had an experience where a strong sense of shame came over me - it was not related to sin nor was there any evil or demonic connection to it.
    It was supernatural and the Lord showed me that is what we will experience at the judgment standing before God if we don't mature and stay carnal
    I am the first to admit at times I have failed God but at the back of my mind this experience challenges me to keep going forward

    I have also seen in the spirit a powerful 'spotlight' representing the EYES of God - bright white light that will shine over us and can expose every minute detail and motive

    All that I wrote can be found in the scriptures

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan david View Post
    I think we need to factor in the possibility of heavenly rewards. Of course heaven is a reward in itself too.

    Matthew 5:11-12
    "Blessed are you when men cast insults at you, and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely, on account of Me. Rejoice, and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great

    Matthew 6:20
    "But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal..."

    Revelation 22:12
    "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.

    Philippians 3:14
    I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

    Hebrews 11:26
    ...considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
    Thanks for this insight. Just as some will receive a reward for faithful fruitful labor during this life, just the opposite for those who squandered God ordained opportunities away resulting in being reward less.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Many believers don't want to acknowledge that there will be chastening in heaven at the judgement
    God is love and everyone will know that but believers will still be rebuked and feel ashamed. God will humble some to reveal their prideful hearts and how they treated people on earth
    Even our very MOTIVES will be EXPOSED

    There will be certain blessings that will be withheld for periods of time

    When we stand before the ALL KNOWING God we can no longer pretend to be super spiritual or holy or anointed or powerful but our very lives will be exposed like a powerful spotlight. All fakery and pretense will flee


    Yikes


    When I was a young believer I had an experience where a strong sense of shame came over me - it was not related to sin nor was there any evil or demonic connection to it.
    It was supernatural and the Lord showed me that is what we will experience at the judgment standing before God if we don't mature and stay carnal
    I am the first to admit at times I have failed God but at the back of my mind this experience challenges me to keep going forward

    I have also seen in the spirit a powerful 'spotlight' representing the EYES of God - bright white light that will shine over us and can expose every minute detail and motive

    All that I wrote can be found in the scriptures
    Thank you for this. Very well said. I found Scripture that points to this truth.

    1 Cor 4:5 says; "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the hidden things in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God."

    The Lord is aware of the negative influences which besets ones life and will evaluate them in the same way, negatively. Fire serves as a symbol of God's judgment that consumes what is not acceptable to Him (Zech 13:9). Those whose labor resulted in selfish gain and strife will be saved but barely yet so through fire. He or she will suffer loss of rewards, which could include forfeiture of expanded assignment opportunities to serve and rule with Jesus in kingdom living throughout His reign. As far as the reward is concerned, the latter part of the above verse; "...and then each man's praise will come from God, "Well done, good and faithful servant" which also may include a portion of kingdom authority in which to oversee some vast part of the kingdom.
    If you put God First, you have Him at Last.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Thank you for this. Very well said. I found Scripture that points to this truth.

    1 Cor 4:5 says; "Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the hidden things in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God."

    That is one of the scriptures related to what I wrote and it's written for believers


    The Lord is aware of the negative influences which besets ones life and will evaluate them in the same way, negatively. Fire serves as a symbol of God's judgment that consumes what is not acceptable to Him (Zech 13:9). Those whose labor resulted in selfish gain and strife will be saved but barely yet so through fire. He or she will suffer loss of rewards, which could include forfeiture of expanded assignment opportunities to serve and rule with Jesus in kingdom living throughout His reign. As far as the reward is concerned, the latter part of the above verse; "...and then each man's praise will come from God, "Well done, good and faithful servant" which also may include a portion of kingdom authority in which to oversee some vast part of the kingdom.


    Good comment
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty View Post
    Looking over at 2 Cor 5:10, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body,
    according to what he has done, whether good or bad."

    These are believers and it says that they are going to receive good and bad according to what he did in his Christian life before his death. Anyone have a comment just what the good and bad will be? I don't think it is a loss of salvation at this point because they made it to the judgment seat of Christ. This is not the great white throne judgment. Therefore, what is the bad thing the Lord will give to the Christian as well as the good?
    It doesn't say that he will receive bad, that is faulty logic. In 1 Cor 3 if your works burn up because they are worthless then you receive no reward, that is the proper "recompensation" in the case of "only bad". If you are found in Christ and are therefore before the judgment seat of Christ, that is.

    1 Cor 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
    13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is.
    14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
    15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

    According to the worst case scenario in verse 15, it is possible to be saved into heaven yet have works that are so poor that they burn up entirely and therefore there are no rewards whatsoever except salvation itself.

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