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Thread: Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by hansc View Post
    Part of the problem with the Calvinists is that they equate spiritual death with physical death. They say, that since a physically dead person cannot do anything physical, therefore a spiritually dead person also cannot do anything, such as receive Christ. They overlay the physical on the spiritual supposing they are alike in all manner. In this they are mistaken and betray the hallmark of the carnal mind.

    Reasoning this out, people cannot make a choice for salvation, but God decides who to save and who shall die by His will. Discussing this with a Calvinist, I was told, that because this was so, that it had to be that God wants billions of people to go to Hell. I then asked "Does Jesus actually want billions to go to Hell?" The Calvinist answered me "Yes, Jesus wants these people to go to Hell, that is His will."

    Sad bunch, these Calvinists.
    Actually that is a gross misrepresentation of the Calvinist position! The ONLY people I have ever encountered with such a position are what we call hyper-Calvinist but that is not a position held by the leading Calvinist churches and denominations!

    Lcash

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  3. #22
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lcash View Post
    Actually that is a gross misrepresentation of the Calvinist position! The ONLY people I have ever encountered with such a position are what we call hyper-Calvinist but that is not a position held by the leading Calvinist churches and denominations!
    Lcash
    It was the position of John Calvin and it is also an internally logically consistent position.

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  5. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    It was the position of John Calvin and it is also an internally logically consistent position.
    I am specifically referring to the last paragraph and the infantile dig in his last sentence!

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  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lcash View Post
    I am specifically referring to the last paragraph and the infantile dig in his last sentence!
    John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion :

    In conformity, therefore, to the clear doctrine of the Scripture, we assert, that by an eternal and immutable counsel, God has once for all determined, both whom he would admit to salvation, and whom he would condemn to destruction. We affirm that this counsel, as far as concerns the elect, is founded on his gratuitous mercy, totally irrespective of human merit; but that to those whom he devotes to condemnation, the gate of life is closed by a just and irreprehensible, but incomprehensible, judgment. In the elect, we consider calling as an evidence of election, and justification as another token of its manifestation, till they arrive in glory, which constitutes its completion. As God seals his elect by vocation and justification, so by excluding the reprobate from the knowledge of his name and the sanctification of his Spirit, he affords an indication of the judgement that awaits them.

    What exactly is the difference ?

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  9. #25
    yanno.. no one is here as a John Calvin apologist.

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  11. #26
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    yanno.. no one is here as a John Calvin apologist.
    I have not forgotten femme....hopefully this weekend I can take some time...

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  13. #27
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    yanno.. no one is here as a John Calvin apologist.
    That might actually help ...can you point out what you don't agree with? I know in the past a lot of energy went into discussing HIS view and you were often put out because you were categorized in those perceptions.

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  15. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Lcash View Post
    Actually that is a gross misrepresentation of the Calvinist position! The ONLY people I have ever encountered with such a position are what we call hyper-Calvinist but that is not a position held by the leading Calvinist churches and denominations!

    Lcash
    I've spoken to a good deal of Calvinists, and they nearly all hold this position, but before we look at this closer.

    How do you define "hyper-Calvinist?"

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  17. #29
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hansc View Post
    I've spoken to a good deal of Calvinists, and they nearly all hold this position, but before we look at this closer.

    How do you define "hyper-Calvinist?"
    Someone who holds to a logically consistent position on unconditional election. Since God (within Calvinism) has preordained who should be saved and the others can not but end up in hell he has consequently also preordained who should be damned. Anything else is basically a matter of accusing God of not knowing or understanding the result of his "passing the others by", the same logic the Pacifist uses to deny responsibility for failing to defend themselves, their families etc. Since God is all knowing and understanding, the one follows from the other and "single predestination" is total nonsense. People still hold to this position but that does not mean that it is a logical position to hold to, meaning it cannot amount to the truth - based on that fact alone.

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  19. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    That might actually help ...can you point out what you don't agree with? I know in the past a lot of energy went into discussing HIS view and you were often put out because you were categorized in those perceptions.
    not really… when I came to this set of doctrines, no one said "Well, John Calvin says [insert stuff here] so you need to believe it"

    We looked at the Bible.

    I've found that I fall between Reformed and Calvinism and Lutheranism with Presbyterianism too. I actually don't have and exact peg. So, hey, toss in some Baptist and what else is laying about.

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