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Thread: Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Yes you should have said something. What fun is there to post stuff if there is no one who disagrees?

    However, yours is indeed the typical reformed response based on the "T" in TULIP. However, never could understand how anyone reading the Bible manage to come up with the teaching of "Total depravity." However, don't mind discussing it if you don't.
    I'm not sure how "TULIP" came to be a representative for the doctrinal position.. when I was investigating these things, no one used that acronym until WAAAY late in the discussion.

    A better way to think of it would be "total inability" Man is sinbased. We start out with a propensity to sin. We WANT to sin, We're running away from God from the moment of birth.

    We are unable to do anything to facilitate our salvation. the ONLY thing we contribute to the situation is our sin. That's it. period.

    I wholly think our heart must be changed before we can begin to recoginze WHO God is and what He's done for us.

    (thanks for the offer for exchange.. )

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  3. #12
    Part of the problem with the Calvinists is that they equate spiritual death with physical death. They say, that since a physically dead person cannot do anything physical, therefore a spiritually dead person also cannot do anything, such as receive Christ. They overlay the physical on the spiritual supposing they are alike in all manner. In this they are mistaken and betray the hallmark of the carnal mind.

    Reasoning this out, people cannot make a choice for salvation, but God decides who to save and who shall die by His will. Discussing this with a Calvinist, I was told, that because this was so, that it had to be that God wants billions of people to go to Hell. I then asked "Does Jesus actually want billions to go to Hell?" The Calvinist answered me "Yes, Jesus wants these people to go to Hell, that is His will."

    Sad bunch, these Calvinists.

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  5. #13
    hm.. I wonder.. when all those millions (supposed.. we don't know for sure the numbers) were locked out of the ark by God, did He really want them to die in the flood?

    BUT, just to make my position clear.. everyone ends up where they want to be.

    No one is unjustly in hell.. no one is forced into heaven.

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  7. #14
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    hm.. I wonder.. when all those millions (supposed.. we don't know for sure the numbers) were locked out of the ark by God, did He really want them to die in the flood?

    BUT, just to make my position clear.. everyone ends up where they want to be.

    No one is unjustly in hell.. no one is forced into heaven.
    When you say, "no one is forced into heaven" how do you reconcile that with this statement, "A better way to think of it would be "total inability" Man is sin based. We start out with a propensity to sin. We WANT to sin, We're running away from God from the moment of birth."

    If it was MY will to remain in my sin and GOD changed my will without asking, was I not forced?

    If I was blind and someone healed my eyes without my permission, doesn't the fact that I am happy about it prove my WILL was not the issue...the issue was the fact that I did not know I was blind to begin with? So if it's that I just don't KNOW there is another option to the blindness how can you say anyone CHOOSES to go to Hell?

    We were born 'dead' spiritually..born without a relationship with God...born blind....could we have NOT sinned despite that condition we were born in?

    If I was born without an arm and had to learn to function/compensate for the absence of that arm how can I be judged for using the wrong arm? So if we are born separated from any relationship with God...blind and don't know it..and we have to learn to function as one born blind where is the justice in condemning me for how I was born? Do you believe the one born blind can CHOOSE to not stumble?


    So am I correct in saying that ALL are blind and don't know it and God choses to REVEAL the fact to some that they were blind but now see and others He chooses to just leave in their blindness they were BORN with and had NO choice about?

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  9. #15
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    If God can resurrect the spiritually dead then he can reveal himself to the person while the person is yet spiritually dead as well. The Calvinist argument that regeneration must precede faith plus whatever else is simply nonsense.

    John 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
    25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

    Hear the sinner's hearing the voice of the son of God precedes his coming alive. Notice that the last "hear" is in the active voice implying participation as in "those who listen will live"

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  11. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    When you say, "no one is forced into heaven" how do you reconcile that with this statement, "A better way to think of it would be "total inability" Man is sin based. We start out with a propensity to sin. We WANT to sin, We're running away from God from the moment of birth."

    If it was MY will to remain in my sin and GOD changed my will without asking, was I not forced?

    If I was blind and someone healed my eyes without my permission, doesn't the fact that I am happy about it prove my WILL was not the issue...the issue was the fact that I did not know I was blind to begin with? So if it's that I just don't KNOW there is another option to the blindness how can you say anyone CHOOSES to go to Hell?

    We were born 'dead' spiritually..born without a relationship with God...born blind....could we have NOT sinned despite that condition we were born in?

    If I was born without an arm and had to learn to function/compensate for the absence of that arm how can I be judged for using the wrong arm? So if we are born separated from any relationship with God...blind and don't know it..and we have to learn to function as one born blind where is the justice in condemning me for how I was born? Do you believe the one born blind can CHOOSE to not stumble?


    So am I correct in saying that ALL are blind and don't know it and God choses to REVEAL the fact to some that they were blind but now see and others He chooses to just leave in their blindness they were BORN with and had NO choice about?
    dang girl.. I'm not sure, at this time, I can do a whole exchange.. maybe break it down a bit? (I'm working both Duane's and my job as well and doing the nurse thing for him.. my brain is pretty much jello by the evening.)

    I think there was a thread, a long time ago, that talked about how physical life mirrors spiritual life. IF that's the case then, at least acknowledge that NO one asks to be born.. they just are. I don't have any problem with spiritual life being that way too. God gives it, or He doesn't. It's His to give. None of us has any control over when we're born, or to whom we're given as a baby.

    I'm not going to agree that God changes our will against our will. The Bible says He gives us a new heart..He substitutes one of flesh for our's of stone, so, maybe that, in and of itself changes our will.. Do you see that as the same thing?

    I know I'm odd man out, but I do not think it's possible, for any wo/man, to NOT sin indefinitely. I think it's possible for us to not sin continually though. As we grow and mature we are able to see where we can rely on God's strength to choose to do what He's said to do.

    I completely agree that unregenerated people don't know they're blind.. which is why they have no interest in God at all. It's why the atheists can't fathom there is a being of such magnatude. It doesn't make sense.. People are blinded by satan. Are you asking if it's possible that someone, who was blind, and didn't realize it, is made able to see goes "oh rats, I'd rather be blind."? can you actually think that would happen? I can't imagine that.

    That God opts to give His life to some doesn't mean he's obligated to give life to all. When He chose Abraham, He DIDn't chose all the rest of the folks around. When He chose Moses, He didn't choose anyone else to do that job.. when He chose Paul, there were lots of other guys around, but God didn't chose them, He chose Paul. We're told that WE'RE created for works that He's made FOR US. It's a very intimate relationship we have with Him.

    I'm not sure how the arm analogy is working.. NO one is condemned because they are blind, the are condemned because they sin.
    or did I misunderstand.

    I'm on and off for a few days, I'll try to keep with you, my time is very limited.. but I like discussing with you.

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  13. #17
    Super Moderator Quest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    dang girl.. I'm not sure, at this time, I can do a whole exchange.. maybe break it down a bit? (I'm working both Duane's and my job as well and doing the nurse thing for him.. my brain is pretty much jello by the evening.)

    I think there was a thread, a long time ago, that talked about how physical life mirrors spiritual life. IF that's the case then, at least acknowledge that NO one asks to be born.. they just are. I don't have any problem with spiritual life being that way too. God gives it, or He doesn't. It's His to give. None of us has any control over when we're born, or to whom we're given as a baby.

    I'm not going to agree that God changes our will against our will. The Bible says He gives us a new heart..He substitutes one of flesh for our's of stone, so, maybe that, in and of itself changes our will.. Do you see that as the same thing?

    I know I'm odd man out, but I do not think it's possible, for any wo/man, to NOT sin indefinitely. I think it's possible for us to not sin continually though. As we grow and mature we are able to see where we can rely on God's strength to choose to do what He's said to do.

    I completely agree that unregenerated people don't know they're blind.. which is why they have no interest in God at all. It's why the atheists can't fathom there is a being of such magnatude. It doesn't make sense.. People are blinded by satan. Are you asking if it's possible that someone, who was blind, and didn't realize it, is made able to see goes "oh rats, I'd rather be blind."? can you actually think that would happen? I can't imagine that.

    That God opts to give His life to some doesn't mean he's obligated to give life to all. When He chose Abraham, He DIDn't chose all the rest of the folks around. When He chose Moses, He didn't choose anyone else to do that job.. when He chose Paul, there were lots of other guys around, but God didn't chose them, He chose Paul. We're told that WE'RE created for works that He's made FOR US. It's a very intimate relationship we have with Him.

    I'm not sure how the arm analogy is working.. NO one is condemned because they are blind, the are condemned because they sin.
    or did I misunderstand.

    I'm on and off for a few days, I'll try to keep with you, my time is very limited.. but I like discussing with you.
    Thank you...I was at the hospital last night with my daughter who was seizing and am quite burnt out to. Pray for her...
    I really want to contemplate your post so I will try to respond on Thursday?

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  15. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    at least acknowledge that NO one asks to be born.. they just are...
    That's debatable:

    http://livingfaithforum.com/forum/sh...orn-or-do-they

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  17. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Thank you...I was at the hospital last night with my daughter who was seizing and am quite burnt out to. Pray for her...
    Praying for wellness for your daughter and peace and rest for you and Femme. :)

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  19. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by krystian View Post
    no, it's not.

    some theory put up by some guy has no substance or validity.

    there is NO way to test his .. hm.. would it be "vision"?

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