Thread: Music, language of the soul?

Originally Posted by John

Clearly, music sans lyrics can move the soul. From the primitive beat of war drums to modern movie sound tracks, music has been used for a very long time to produce an emotional response.

Point being?

The emotional response of music, not lyrics, is universal and thus making music a moral, not an amoral thing.

Bap used sports as an example of Amoral in that it is not bad unless we bring bad to IT...music, however, tends to bring bad to US. And so very often we migrate to it not realizing what it is truly speaking to our soul or the harm it is doing....

This can very well be self deception in that we avoid what makes us FEEL bad, say fearful music, and yet we embrace what makes us FEEL good which may very well be just as Satanic in origin....but we judge it all by feelings very possibly not even considering the spiritual consequences of those FEELINGS...

1 Samuel 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil'spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took the harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

Originally Posted by Quest

The emotional response of music, not lyrics, is universal and thus making music a moral, not an amoral thing.

Bap used sports as an example of Amoral in that it is not bad unless we bring bad to IT...music, however, tends to bring bad to US. And so very often we migrate to it not realizing what it is truly speaking to our soul or the harm it is doing....

This can very well be self deception in that we avoid what makes us FEEL bad, say fearful music, and yet we embrace what makes us FEEL good which may very well be just as Satanic in origin....but we judge it all by feelings very possibly not even considering the spiritual consequences of those FEELINGS...

So I took a 20 minute listen to the video and as I suspected nothing he said really changes my perspective. For one thing I think the speaker simply ignores larger cultural and moral context by making some of the assertions he makes .

For instance the first music snippet he played supposedly brought the audience to a happy joyful emotional state. What was not put into consideration however was that the audience was pretty much white , American western or what have you.Whom have come to associate that Kind of music with hapines.

I can almost guarantee you as one of Nigerian descent that were the same snippet played to a Nigerian or African audience the overwhelming emotional response would be one of boredom or indifference .

The second crescendo type snippet he played supposedly induced fear to the audience . What was left out however is that most of the audience had probably seen hundreds of movies with same or similar sounds utilized to portray suspense or portending horror or suspense so the audiences response is probably more of association than any abstract moral attribute of the music itself .

You seem to repeatedly suggest in your posts that the fact that Music stimulates emotions is something to be wary of . I respectfully disagree and reiterate that Emotions are given to us by GOD and are necessary to reside in this world we live . Even fear was given to alert us to danger so that we can take appropriate steps to avoid danger .

Point is that so long as the emotions being stimulated by association aren't pushing us in the direction of an inordinate soul tie (Person action or Thing) but pushing us in a Godly direction then its all good

Originally Posted by BAP

So I took a 20 minute listen to the video and as I suspected nothing he said really changes my perspective. For one thing I think the speaker simply ignores larger cultural and moral context by making some of the assertions he makes .

For instance the first music snippet he played supposedly brought the audience to a happy joyful emotional state. What was not put into consideration however was that the audience was pretty much white , American western or what have you.Whom have come to associate that Kind of music with hapines. I can almost guarantee you as one of Nigerian descent that were the same snippet played to a Nigerian or African audience the overwhelming emotional response would be one of boredom or indifference .

The second crescendo type snippet he played supposedly induced fear to the audience . What was left out however is that most of the audience had probably seen hundreds of movies with same or similar sounds utilized to portray suspense or portending horror or suspense so the audiences response is probably more of association than any abstract moral attribute of the music itself .

You seem to repeatedly suggest in your posts that the fact that Music stimulates emotions is something to be wary of . I respectfully disagree and reiterate that Emotions are given to us by GOD and are necessary to reside in this world we live . Even fear was given to alert us to danger so that we can take appropriate steps to avoid danger .

Point is that so long as the emotions being stimulated by association aren't pushing us in the direction of an inordinate soul tie (Person action or Thing) but pushing us in a Godly direction then its all good

He did take into consideration culture and addressed that...he stated, although the video does not validate, that other cultures respond to the clips the same way...

Emotions are given by God but are severely UNSANCTIFIED and distorted by our soul....and that is actually the point of the who teaching...we often don't distinguish that fact when being 'stirred emotionally'. And because of that those unsanctified emotions affect us spiritually...like drinking poison in small doses...

Point is that so long as the emotions being stimulated by association aren't pushing us in the direction of an inordinate soul tie (Person action or Thing) but pushing us in a Godly direction then its all good

True, that point is carried a step further in the amoral vs moral context.

A person viewing music as amoral are more likely to judge what they hear by their own feelings and preference...

A person viewing music as moral will consciously keep the spiritual filter on even when, and especially when, listening to music they LIKE...

And Christians still young in growth will lean heaviest to music that appeals to emotions...even their religious and worship preferences will gravitate to emotional and not be aware the emotions are not drawing them closer to the Lord but are, in fact, inciting their carnality...

Edited to add are there any scriptures that advise us to FEAR? I did a quick search and there are some 20 ish words translated as 'fear'.
And we are told to fear not....certain FEARS blind us just as any other passionate emotion...when our emotions originate from the spirit they bring light and awareness and faith....when carnal these were all we had to navigate life...now we have the Holy Spirit....if led by HIM there are a emotional fears we have that HE does not bring..

Seems the point there is are our emotions originating from HIM or our soul. We are NOT to be led by our soul but by His Spirit...but the study of the emotion of FEAR would be a good topic in another thread..

Whether he is correct or not we should respond to music from the moral POV, IMHO. In that position we will never listen to ANY music without having our spirit filter turned on...and not dismiss what we sense in the Spirit based on the environment or the lyrics or the genre or title..

Originally Posted by Quest

He did take into consideration culture and addressed that...he stated, although the video does not validate, that other cultures respond to the clips the same way...

Emotions are given by God but are severely UNSANCTIFIED and distorted by our soul....and that is actually the point of the who teaching...we often don't distinguish that fact when being 'stirred emotionally'. And because of that those unsanctioned emotions affect us spiritually...like drinking poison in small doses...

But then the Issue is not music but EMOTIONS . Many things can stir up emotions not just music . For instance , For a long time after my divorce there were certain restaurants I would not go because they brought back memories with emotions. I even stopped playing soccer because of it because my ex wife was a permanent fixture at my games so ther was an association there . Furthermore emotions are not always UNSANCTIFIED AND DISTORTED. If you have spent time renewing your mind with the WORD then negative unsanctioned emotions would happen at a lesser frequency

True, that point is carried a step further in the amoral vs moral context.

A person viewing music as amoral are more likely to judge what they hear by their own feelings and preference...

A person viewing music as moral will consciously keep the spiritual filter on even when, and especially when, listening to music they LIKE...

And Christians still young in growth will lean heaviest to music that appeals to emotions...even their religious and worship preferences will gravitate to emotional and not be aware the emotions are not drawing them closer to the Lord but are, in fact, inciting their carnality...

Again God created emotions so while indeed true worship is in spirit and truth you still have to go thru the outer court ,thru the inner court to get to the holy of holies. So saying that emotions don't draw them closer to the Lord isn't accurate. Granted emotions alone wont get them there but its in the mix somewhere. If our bodies can be deemed as living sacrifices why do you think God doesnt want our emotions too ?
Edited to add are there any scriptures that advise us to FEAR? I did a quick search and there are some 20 ish words translated as 'fear'.
And we are told to fear not....certain FEARS blind us just as any other passionate emotion...when our emotions originate from the spirit they bring light and awareness and faith....when carnal these were all we had to navigate life...now we have the Holy Spirit....if led by HIM there are a emotional fears we have that HE does not bring..

Seems the point there is are our emotions originating from HIM or our soul. We are NOT to be led by our soul but by His Spirit...but the study of the emotion of FEAR would be a good topic in another thread..

Well there may be no instructions to fear but there are instructions to be cautious, to be watchful , to be alert , to be sober, to not be ignorant of the wiles of the devil and so on and so forth . It is in that context that I use the term Fear .

I will only take time to respond to your point #2...I did not say emotions do not draw them closer....I said, "And Christians still young in growth will lean heaviest to music that appeals to emotions even their religious and worship preferences will gravitate to emotional and not be aware the emotions are not drawing them closer to the Lord but are, in fact, inciting their carnality..."

AWARENESS is the emphasis...

Pulling back to the basic topic of music being MORAL which is communicating a demonic incitement to emotions that are NOT drawing us toward Jesus...they are just inciting emotionalism or even emotions that are ungodly...

Let me be clear, emotions are indeed part of God's design as I stated in the beginning. BUT they are corrupted in our carnal nature.
Music which is MORAL speaks to the carnal base nature and emotions and if MORAL and not AMORAL it speaks the same to ALL...and is not cultural or learned and experiential.

No doubt our complex design does assign emotions and memories to some music we experience personally but does that mean music is only AMORAL?

I suggest that aspect of our design just takes certain music to a deeper level but does not necessarily define it.

At the end of the day BAP it is clear you believe music is AMORAL...and you have a point that the audience there was not REAL diverse....

I hold open the idea it is MORAL... music conveys a spiritual message without lyrics or prior cultural experience or imagery...but as you noted, that's hard to prove.

This may or may not affect what each of us actually listens to or how we check it in our spirits...but it certainly CAN affect that and therein lies the potential danger of it's powerful negative influence on our spiritual journey.

It was interesting that the study by Dr Virkler on Releasing Healing through Kingdom Emotions was available to watch and I got to view them yesterday and today...while not speaking on music he was speaking on being led by the Spirit emotions rather than the soulish ones...

Something he said was based on Psalm 73 'Do not reason anything outside of God's presence'

....so when it comes to music we should not reason it good or bad apart from HIS presence speaking to us...and we certainly need to teach THIS to young believers....

Originally Posted by Quest

I will only take time to respond to your point #2...I did not say emotions do not draw them closer....I said, "And Christians still young in growth will lean heaviest to music that appeals to emotions even their religious and worship preferences will gravitate to emotional and not be aware the emotions are not drawing them closer to the Lord but are, in fact, inciting their carnality..."

AWARENESS is the emphasis...

Pulling back to the basic topic of music being MORAL which is communicating a demonic incitement to emotions that are NOT drawing us toward Jesus...they are just inciting emotionalism or even emotions that are ungodly...

Let me be clear, emotions are indeed part of God's design as I stated in the beginning. BUT they are corrupted in our carnal nature.
Music which is MORAL speaks to the carnal base nature and emotions and if MORAL and not AMORAL it speaks the same to ALL...and is not cultural or learned and experiential.

No doubt our complex design does assign emotions and memories to some music we experience personally but does that mean music is only AMORAL?

I suggest that aspect of our design just takes certain music to a deeper level but does not necessarily define it.

At the end of the day BAP it is clear you believe music is AMORAL...and you have a point that the audience there was not REAL diverse....

I hold open the idea it is MORAL... music conveys a spiritual message without lyrics or prior cultural experience or imagery...but as you noted, that's hard to prove.

This may or may not affect what each of us actually listens to or how we check it in our spirits...but it certainly CAN affect that and therein lies the potential danger of it's powerful negative influence on our spiritual journey.

I hear you but all said and done much of this is fear mongering .

The notion that anything that speaks to our emotions is by default speaking to carnality seems to be a recurring over-arching theme in your posts on this topic and also from the speaker . Maybe that's not what you mean but that's not what comes across .

However you are right. Its ultimately about awareness .. Any music that stirs carnality because of its association with an ungodly soulish attachmnet in any form regardless of the lyrical content should be avoided even if only for a season .. I would liken that to a soul fast