Thread: A time to die?

*The following posts have been split off from another thread...I would like to remind everyone to be courteous in your replies*

Originally Posted by Nikos

This really grabs my heart for these people. We do not understand, but we must be ready at all times if it is our time to go be with Jesus.

SAY WHAT?!!!!!

Time to go to be with Jesus? Is it your belief that Jesus sends crazed murderers to shoot people whose SO-CALLED TIME TO GO TO BE WITH HIM has arrived? My Bible teaches quite differently on this subject:

The thief [Satan] cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. (John 10:10)

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. (John 8:44)

Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. (1 John 3:12)

Jesus is not sitting there with an Calendar scheduling people's day of death. Furthermore, there is no guarantee that everyone in that church knew Jesus, which means their death definitely went against His will (Eze. 18:32; 33:11; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). It is this type of teaching coming from "Christians" which makes God the responsible party for such tragedies that produce atheists and haters of God.

Originally Posted by Nikos

NO!

You read into my post far more than was ever said. I think you just want to start an agrument.

I read exactly what you said. You said, "We do not understand, but we must be ready at all times if it is our time to go be with Jesus."

You don't have to argue. You simply need to clarify what you meant and use better language if you want to. Otherwise, I can only go by your literal statement to assess what you meant.

Originally Posted by Bookman

So, VW, let me pose a question. I think I've asked it before. Let's say you're in a crowd when there is mass shooting. A church perhaps. People around you get killed, but you walk away unscathed. Are you not going to praise God for protecting you? I think you would. And if so, why didn't He protect the others? If God protected you, it goes without saying He didn't protect the others. No, God is not the cause of evil, such as a mass shooting, but whether you live or die in such a tragic scenario, God, not having caused the event, will nevertheless cause the result--either your protection or your entry into heaven.

Let me ask YOU a question? Do you believe that every person who goes to church is saved? If you don't then you might have to assume that some of those "unprotected" people who were killed did not know Jesus. In light of your conclusion that, because God did not protect these individuals that, in your words, "God, not having caused the event, will nevertheless cause the result--either your protection or your entry into heaven." How does YOUR ideology work out in the light of God's word:

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 33:11)

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9)

Since you believe that "God, not having caused the event, will nevertheless cause the result" then you will have to conclude, against His Word, that He caused people to go to HELL against His will. Are you ready to conclude that, going against God's Word or would you prefer to change your view on this subject in light of God's Word?

Originally Posted by Bookman

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. Are you saying God has absolutely nothing to do with the timing of death for any person? The time and means of your future death is not in God's hands?

God has absolutely NOTHING to do with someone's death - timing or otherwise. Have you never read where it says, "The last ENEMY that shall be destroyed is death" (1 Cor. 15:26). Death came into this world as the result of SIN and NOT on some pre-planned timing of God (Rom. 5:12). For you to even make this claim makes God responsible for the tragedies of this nature no matter how you choose to spin it. You may as well blame God for SUICIDES and ABORTIONS with your logic.

Originally Posted by Bookman

Well, we disagree, then. We know from Scripture that "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints." And as I said in regard to the shooting, God is not the cause of "suicides and abortions" but He determines the final result in terms of the destiny of the victims.

BTW, you still didn't answer my question. If you are spared in a tragedy, will you not praise God for His protection?

As far as not answering your question, exactly what kind of answer were you expecting from me? Did you expect me to say tell you that I would NOT worship God?

As far as your disagreeing - you are disagreeing with God's Word, not with ME and that, despite your misquote of Psalm 116:15 (while ignoring the many passages that dispute the idea that death is precious to God). Perhaps we should consider other translations outside of the Calvinistically influenced King James Version:

The death of the Lord’s faithful is a costly loss in his eyes. (Common English Bible)

From Adonai’s point of view, the death of those faithful to him is costly. (Complete Jewish Bible)

You are deeply concerned when one of your loyal people faces death. (Contemporary English Version)

Very dear to the Lord are the lives of his followers. He cares when they face death. (Easy to Read Version)

How painful it is to the Lord when one of his people dies! (Good News Translation)

Costly in Yahweh’s view is the death of his faithful ones. (Lexham English Bible)

His loved ones are very precious to him, and he does not lightly let them die. (The Living Bible)

The Lord values the lives of his faithful followers. (New English Translation)

The Lord pays special attention when his faithful people die. (New International Reader's Version)

The Lord cares deeply when his loved ones die. (New Living Translation)

the death of saints of the Lord is precious in his sight. (The Lord is deeply moved by the death of any of his saints.) (Wycliffe Bible)

Grievous in the eyes of the Lord is the death of his pious ones. (Leeser Old Testament)

I believe that these translations are more consistent with the overall Biblical understanding of God's view of death. God does not sit around rejoicing when His people die. According to some translations, He is actually grieved over it.