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Thread: Essentials for salvation ?

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    Essentials for salvation ?

    It has been claimed that any sin will bring you out from under grace and you are now on your way to hell until you repent again. More specifically, the following lists of sin are typically used as benchmarks, sins that are sure to bring you out from under grace :

    1 Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
    10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
    20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
    21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood

    In Acts 15, the apostles discuss what to do with the Gentiles who have taken up the faith, whether or not they should be taught to keep the whole law of Moses or not. They reject that idea and decide to write to them and tell them the following :

    Acts 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
    20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
    21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

    Presumably, the idea was that this was sufficient until someone arrived to teach them more about these things which again would be sufficient until the New Testament had been established, which would take another 50 years or so and even longer before all the books involved would circulate in all the churches.

    The lists of sins mentioned in 15:19 basically involves sexual immorality and idolatry. These are important but the list is sorely lacking in relation to the lists of sins I quoted above. They mention that the law of Moses had been preached sufficently that even the Gentiles would have some rudimentory background for what its demands was and that would help but that doesn't mean that they would necessarily recall all the sins in the above lists, some of which are hardly mentioned in the law of Moses, at least not in terms of a concrete command not to do so.

    So if avoiding those specific sins (or even any sin at all) was essential for continued salvation (until repenting later again) then the mentioned Gentiles had not been taught what was necessary for them to stay saved. They could commit sins they hadn't been taught about, die in the act then tell God that they had no idea. Which would render the apostle's council at Jerusalem, which is discussed favorably in the Bible, irresponsible. In fact, it would have been better for those Gentiles if they had been taught to simply keep the whole law of Moses (by the power of grace if you will) until they received further instructions and to repent as quickly as possible every time they misstepped while attempting to do that. That would have increased their chances of being saved into heaven enormously, given the "every time you sin you are no longer under grace until you repent again" doctrine.

    The apostles' decision to "not make it difficult for the Gentiles that are turning to God" tells us a lot about how they viewed the power of grace to cover sin. Most posters here including myself believe that sin in a Christian's life has potential eternal consequences in that it undermines faith and shipwrecking faith brings you out from under grace but that usually takes time or a very severe act. These Gentiles were under Roman law and for them to avoid such things as murder, robbery and theft was a simple matter of teaching them to be generally lawabiding in terms of the laws of the land. Then they added avoiding idolatry and sexual immorality, none of which was illegal by Roman law, at least not in every form. That was rudimentory and sticking with that would probably keep them going until they gained a better understanding of the details.

    The same is the case with many Christians in areas where it is difficult to be a Christian in the open, where Bibles are forbidden or hard to find. Some Chinese underground Christians had to make use of just having a few verses and some general understanding of the gospel. They had the Spirit but would that keep them alive since they didn't have any clear teaching on what specific list of sins would send them on their way to hell until repented of or in general, a lacking understanding of what is sin, to begin with ? Again, grace is more powerful than that.

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  3. #2
    Colonel... don't get into a legalistic mindset in trying to over think these things
    I have mentioned before God takes into account the spiritual condition of the person, new convert, what sort of pressure or temptation they were under, did they have mental problems, etc.

    Sin is dangerous but the line that is crossed is determined by God for each individual person

    For instance if Smith Wigglesworth committed immorality then he would be judged far more harshly than most believers due to his spiritual maturity....praise God he showed that conquering sin is possible

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    Far more dangerous is Universal salvation which is growing that no one ends up in hell. Christians are embracing this lie because the grace message has taken off and people are now saying Jesus died for everyone and his grace is greater than judgment and hell.

    This message has always being around but it is gaining prominence. If you disagree they say it is disrespectful to Jesus death and shed blood not to think his grace now doesn't save everyone.....Gods grace is so awesome that now NO ONE IS LOST

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Colonel... don't get into a legalistic mindset in trying to over think these things
    Again, I was specifically addressing the doctrine which states that every sin will bring one out from under grace and one is on one's way to hell until that sin has been repented of. Which is not what you believe.

    I have mentioned before God takes into account the spiritual condition of the person, new convert, what sort of pressure or temptation they were under, did they have mental problems, etc. Sin is dangerous but the line that is crossed is determined by God for each individual person.
    That is your personal opinion.

    For instance if Smith Wigglesworth committed immorality then he would be judged far more harshly than most believers due to his spiritual maturity....praise God he showed that conquering sin is possible
    In terms of rewards probably but you make it sound as if growing in maturity means that one has an increasing reason to expect going to hell over every little sin and that is not the truth. God's Word says :

    Prov 4:18 But the path of the righteous is like the light of dawn, That shines brighter and brighter until the full day.

    You accuse me of overthinking things simply because I place emphasis on the new covenant and its terms and state that God is faithful to it and that the presence of the Holy Spirit and faith in our hearts guarantees the inheritance to come. You bypass that and come up with your own set of terms that annul that, and that is not in line with the truth of the gospel either. I'd rather say that you are the one who has been overthinking this until you have come up with two different versions of how to get saved that don't connect logically, nor even reasonably to each other. It would have been better if you had let be doing that and sticked with placing emphasis on the new covenant instead. At least Victoryword's version is brutally simple and also fair and square in terms of God applying equal justice to individuals in terms of eternal salvation, if you sin then you are going to hell until you repent. It isn't Biblical in terms of the new covenant but at least it is logical.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal TT View Post
    Far more dangerous is Universal salvation which is growing that no one ends up in hell. Christians are embracing this lie because the grace message has taken off and people are now saying Jesus died for everyone and his grace is greater than judgment and hell.

    This message has always being around but it is gaining prominence. If you disagree they say it is disrespectful to Jesus death and shed blood not to think his grace now doesn't save everyone.....Gods grace is so awesome that now NO ONE IS LOST
    Of course. I have debated Universalists previously through (easily) several hundred pages of text so I should know.

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  11. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Again, I was specifically addressing the doctrine which states that every sin will bring one out from under grace and one is on one's way to hell until that sin has been repented of. Which is not what you believe.

    That is a scarecrow argument ...no one here believes 1 sin will send you to hell not even VW. You are making things up to justify your position. If you swore at someone while driving because he cut you off and 10 seconds later got killed no one believes you will go to hell so please stop making stuff up

    Can you name 1 single person that actually believes that??????



    In terms of rewards probably but you make it sound as if growing in maturity means that one has an increasing reason to expect going to hell over every little sin and that is not the truth.

    Again you are making up nonsense, can you please stop EXAGGERATING to justify your position...all I said was he would be judged harsher since James 3:1 says teachers will be judged harsher - its fairly simple

    You accuse me of overthinking things simply because I place emphasis on the new covenant and its terms and state that God is faithful to it and that the presence of the Holy Spirit and faith in our hearts guarantees the inheritance to come.

    another strawman....I don't disagree with your comment so don't use it to make things up as if I don't believe it

    You bypass that and come up with your own set of terms that annul that, and that is not in line with the truth of the gospel either.
    I'd rather say that you are the one who has been overthinking this until you have come up with two different versions of how to get saved that don't connect logically, nor even reasonably to each other

    Wrong again....I agree with thousands of godly preachers who have believed and preached this before me...they have fruit, truth and wisdom on their side


    It would have been better if you had let be doing that and sticked with placing emphasis on the new covenant instead.

    I preach the New Covenant ...if you don't embrace the whole counsel of God in the NT that is your issue


    At least Victoryword's version is brutally simple and also fair and square in terms of God applying equal justice to individuals in terms of eternal salvation, if you sin then you are going to hell until you repent. It isn't Biblical in terms of the new covenant but at least it is logical.

    You need to stop making yourself an authority over everyone else and verify exactly what VW believes since you use his name
    ..

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    That is a scarecrow argument ...no one here believes 1 sin will send you to hell not even VW. You are making things up to justify your position. If you swore at someone while driving because he cut you off and 10 seconds later got killed no one believes you will go to hell so please stop making stuff up

    Can you name 1 single person that actually believes that??????
    That is what Victoryword said in his video. If you sin then you are no longer under grace, until you repent. He may give you the impression that he doesn't "really" believe that when "push comes to shove" and something about "maybe God has mercy if it isn't so bad" etc but that is what his teaching defaults to.

    I'll quote him verbatim :

    7:19 "Jesus has payed for your future sin but if you sin you still have to get back under the blood"

    Where are you and what is your status when you are no longer under the blood of Jesus ?

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    Colonel : In terms of rewards probably but you make it sound as if growing in maturity means that one has an increasing reason to expect going to hell over every little sin and that is not the truth.

    Cardinal TT : Again you are making up nonsense, can you please stop EXAGGERATING to justify your position...all I said was he would be judged harsher since James 3:1 says teachers will be judged harsher - its fairly simple
    The context of the discussion was eternal salvation and against that context you just said exactly what I said.

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    Colonel : You accuse me of overthinking things simply because I place emphasis on the new covenant and its terms and state that God is faithful to it and that the presence of the Holy Spirit and faith in our hearts guarantees the inheritance to come.

    Cardinal TT : another strawman....I don't disagree with your comment so don't use it to make things up as if I don't believe it
    No it's not. You have said yourself several times that someone can have genuine faith and still be on his way to hell. Here is a quote from the adultery thread on the previous forum, from post #68 :

    A person can have all the faith they want and be sincere in their heart. If they choose to sin willfully they can lose their salvation.
    If that means that they can lose their salvation in the future by shipwrecking their faith then we agree and there is nothing to discuss. If it means that they are already in a state where they have lost their salvation then what I said above is correct.

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    Wrong again....I agree with thousands of godly preachers who have believed and preached this before me...they have fruit, truth and wisdom on their side
    That's nothing more than an argument from self proclaimed authority, the same argument could be set up from the other side and it is a complete cop out in terms of discussing the Bible, the Word of God. Which is what the Christian faith is based on.

    You need to stop making yourself an authority over everyone else and verify exactly what VW believes since you use his name
    The only one here who is discussing based on his self proclaimed authority and the authority of his peers, is you. Noone else is doing that. You tend to talk about that and your own opinion on the matter rather than discuss actual scriptures (you have posted none in this thread) which is what I try to do.

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