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Senior Member
I believe in total abstinence. I do not believe that the wine Paul spoke about to Timothy was fermented wine. Why not stay away completely from this drug. Why can't we as Christians just get rid of the stuff that puts a question mark on our testimony. I don't believe we should play the lottery either.
Last edited by Nikos; 08-16-2017 at 08:43 PM.
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Super Moderator
Originally Posted by
Nikos
I believe in total abstinence. I do not believe that the wine Paul spoke about to Timothy was unfermented wine. Why not stay away completely from this drug. Why can't we as Christians just get rid of the stuff that puts a question mark on our testimony. I don't believe we should play the lottery either.
The only reason there is a question mark is the church tradition of saying it's sin...There was no question mark in Jesus' day...well I take that back...they did call Him a wine bibber...
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Senior Member
If we play loose with alcohol using the Bible to justify drinking it, some could use the same logic with gambling. I've heard gamblers compare playing the lottery with investing in the Stock Market also referring to casting lots in the Bible. Do these comparisons justify gambling? I say no. And neither does referring to Jesus and Timothy drinking wine justify Christians drinking alcohol.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
Valiant Woman
If we play loose with alcohol using the Bible to justify drinking it, some could use the same logic with gambling. I've heard gamblers compare playing the lottery with investing in the Stock Market also referring to casting lots in the Bible. Do these comparisons justify gambling? I say no. And neither does referring to Jesus and Timothy drinking wine justify Christians drinking alcohol.
Abstain from all appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22).
If you put God First, you have Him at Last.
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Senior Member
Deut 14:26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or strong drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.
The wine they brewed contained about 4 percent alcohol, the strong drink about 7.
Psalm 104:14 He causes the grass to grow for the cattle,
And vegetation for the service of man,
That he may bring forth food from the earth,
15 And wine that makes glad the heart of man,
Oil to make his face shine,
And bread which strengthens man's heart
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Frozen Chosen
Originally Posted by
Valiant Woman
I've never liked the taste of any alcoholic beverage, especially beer or stronger drinks. If one has only one or two drinks a year, why not total abstinence? Maybe it's me, I just don't get if it's not something enjoyed, why partake at all? I understand buying a lottery ticket when the jackpot is $300,000,000: But the occasional glass of wine (except for medicinal purposes) or few bottles of beer seems to be stress related.
Originally Posted by
Valiant Woman
If we play loose with alcohol using the Bible to justify drinking it, some could use the same logic with gambling. I've heard gamblers compare playing the lottery with investing in the Stock Market also referring to casting lots in the Bible. Do these comparisons justify gambling? I say no. And neither does referring to Jesus and Timothy drinking wine justify Christians drinking alcohol.
I think you just contradicted yourself.
As far as buying lottery tickets, it makes me cringe to think someone would see me standing in line at a kiosk, waiting to buy a ticket. I even have trouble entering free draws and buying tickets to support a local charity.
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Senior Member
Originally Posted by
A.J.
I think you just contradicted yourself.
As far as buying lottery tickets, it makes me cringe to think someone would see me standing in line at a kiosk, waiting to buy a ticket. I even have trouble entering free draws and buying tickets to support a local charity.
How did I contradict myself? I said "understand" buying a lottery ticket. That's not the same as condoning it. I don't condone either, but to me, drinking alcohol is worse because it effects one's judgment and equilibrium. Buying a lottery ticket (which I disagree with as much as drinking alcohol) with the hope of winning a $300,000,000 jackpot is not likely to cause intoxication, cause an automobile accident, or cause one to do things they wouldn't normally do. IOW, it's less harmful physically than alcohol consumption.
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Frozen Chosen
Originally Posted by
Valiant Woman
How did I contradict myself? I said "understand" buying a lottery ticket. That's not the same as condoning it. I don't condone either, but to me, drinking alcohol is worse because it effects one's judgment and equilibrium. Buying a lottery ticket (which I disagree with as much as drinking alcohol) with the hope of winning a $300,000,000 jackpot is not likely to cause intoxication, cause an automobile accident, or cause one to do things they wouldn't normally do. IOW, it's less harmful physically than alcohol consumption.
Ok.
I tend to believe that the "winner's high" can lead someone down the destructive path of gambling, even with lottery tickets, scratch and wins, and other tickets. It's usually people who can't afford the weekly ticket buys that support the lotteries, not the ~once in a blue moon~ players.
My mom loved to brag about her wins on the slot machines, but she never told us how much she spent to get a win.
There are some horrendous stories out there of people who lost everything and then some with their gambling addictions. It's a chemical high. Maybe not one that causes car accidents, but very, very destructive, non the less.
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Super Moderator
I read that many Christians bought and read Shades Of Grey...I found THAT disgusting and told some Christian friends of mine so....
There are many passages in the Bible that speak of drinking wine in the general sense, not evil but customary. There are those that warn AGAINST getting drunk and succumbing to it's control....so I don't see that the Bible calls it evil and the only reason some Christians do is because that is what they were taught...they are of a weak conscience in the matter, as the OP points out. In THAT case I would NOT want to be s stumbling block....Paul said all things are legal but all things are not expedient....in THAT I agree
When it comes to abstaining from all appearance of evil that is a very slippery slope....As a young Christian the Lord an I discussed this. Something like this..
Lord, that could mean coming into bondage to heavy legalism...I will simply trust Your Spirit to teach me what Is sin and what is not and to lead me in situations so as to not cause another to stumble....I have no intention of trying to live in a way that accusers never can accuse because the fact is they will anyway...
50 years ago Pentecostals believed going to a movie was sin, dancing was sin, men wearing short sleeves was a sin....ect....did that make it so? No
Now many changed their position on that...does that mean they backslid? No....
The same is true of social drinking or even having a glass of wine because one enjoys it....many say it is a sin but that does not make it so...
Valiant Woman said she 'understands buying a lottery ticket and as AJ pointed out how addictive that can be....does that make it sin? No...
I want to be clear about something....the discussion of drinking strong drink or wine being sin is ONE discussion and the PROBLEM OF ALCOHOLISM is another..
If you want to say it's not then neither can you say buying a lottery ticket and gambling addiction are not either, just because you deem one MORE dangerous than the other. For the family of a gambler who destroyed their family, that is likely very arguable.
What about women wearing swimsuits? Isn't that an appearance of evil? After all people with a problem with LUST are being tempted visually....
What about makeup? Don't women wear that to be attractive?
Women wearing form fitting clothes...sweaters that accentuate their figure...are we going to pretend this is not a problem for some men and are we going to excuse THAT because that is 'their problem'?
I recall a discussion years ago on this forum, back when under Jim though, where swimsuits were discussed and this was brought up...there were quite a few ladies who actually said that....can't remember who...
The point is, there is genuine evil and some evil is in the opinion or eye of the beholder
and while we are to abstain from it's appearance we are not to come into bondage or bring others into bondage to trying to appease everyone.
When Paul addressed eating meat sacrificed to idols he made it a point to say that idols were nothing therefore the meat was powerless...BUT he would abstain in certain circumstances and to take care for the weak conscience of others...So we need to be prayerful and led by the Spirit...not formulate our view of what is sin based on the weakness or sinful behavior of others...Drinking wine is not a sin therefore as Paul said about the meat, I will not lie and say it is just because some have a weak conscience toward it..but I will be Spirit led in not being a stumbling block to those of weak conscience or biological propensity toward addiction.
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Senior Member
Jewish society up until the early church was a wine drinking society. Grape juice fermented quickly in the climate of the region and they stored it for months. The strength was like our beer though so they had to drink a lot to get drunk or become alcoholics. Which some did but it wasn't very common.
Isaiah 25:6 And in this mountain The Lord of hosts will make for all people A feast of choice pieces, A feast of wines on the lees, Of fat things full of marrow, Of well-refined wines on the lees.
Here God himself is serving wine as part of a feast and the wine has a very detailed description in the Hebrew language. We know exactly how it was made and the result of the process is alcoholic wine.
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