Thread: Christus victor or Penal substitution

I was listening to a conversation at the drop-in centre I volunteer at and heard a young man discussing the anger of God against Jesus because our sins were laid on him, he was just overly animated in his expression of God's anger at sin.
I think this guy is so overtly calvinistic he's missing the point, when confronted him and asked him his opinion on Christus Victor he almost called me a heretic.
My position is both though I tend to lean toward Christus Victor, what say you?

Not sure exactly what that means but Jesus won victory by rising from death again, after having paid the price for our sins.

It's hard to tell his motives and could come from 'God is angry with sin' mentality because he sees lukewarmness in the church over sin and wants to a make a statement.
It could mean he struggles with personal anger and seeing God as angry justifies his attitude.
Maybe he has just had a personal revelation of how horrible sin is and this is the only way for him to express it.

Maybe a mixture of all the above.

God's wrath against sin is not a trendy topic in the church and we have to accept that everything Jesus suffered was because of our sins and how vile it is in Gods sight.
There is still the right way to express this without coming across angry and judgemental

Christ as victor is part of the 2 edged sword of satisfying Gods righteous requirement for sin

John 12:23 But Jesus answered them, saying, “The hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified. 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it produces much grain. 25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also. If anyone serves Me, him My Father will honor.

The grain died but in turn it produced many seeds, both the resurrected Jesus and also everyone born of him.

Originally Posted by victoryword

Coincidentally I have been teaching a series on this subject at our church. This past Sunday I just dealt with the false idea that God was angry with the human race and that He beat up Jesus as a result. I hope to have the video online by this weekend.

This Sunday I will show how Satan was the main culprit behind all that Jesus suffered.

In a sense you can say that I embrace the "Christus Victor" model as well as what some call "The Healing" model of Christ's redemptive work.

Isa 53:4 Yet we esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.
***
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.

Originally Posted by victoryword

I dealt with those passages in last Sunday's teaching and will deal with it more in this Sunday's teaching.

By now I have no clue what you mean and the videos are a bit long for me to watch all of them.

God can be angry and loving at the same time. His holiness and justice demands a sacrifice for sin and death and suffering came upon Jesus.

Ultimately God put Jesus in our place to face the wrath man deserved

It wasn't satan that destroyed millions of lives at the flood it was Gods vengeance on sin.

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

God can be angry and loving at the same time. His holiness and justice demands a sacrifice for sin and death and suffering came upon Jesus.

Ultimately God put Jesus in our place to face the wrath man deserved

It wasn't satan that destroyed millions of lives at the flood it was Gods vengeance on sin.

Still there is a purchase involved, not just a cancelling of debt.