Thread: Christus victor or Penal substitution

That's what I wanted, a 3 dollar bill that is legit. You'll just have to rework the monetary system over there until one can be acquired and rendered for my viewing services.

If the right people all decided they wanted there to be one then they could have it out of the printing press within a week. If there would be an existing law against making it legal tender that cannot be changed quickly enough then I wouldn't hold it against you if I received a certificate along with it that demonstrates that it will be legal tender from such and such date. So the question is, who do you know ?

VW for the sake of the thread and debate you should give a synopsis of the point you're making.
As I said I lean more toward Christus Victor but I do believe in God's anger at sin but in dealing with God's anger we need to remember that we are fallen and so we can't define God's anger in the fullest sense by or personal expression. All our emotions are fallen and is not a good measure of God's expression.

Originally Posted by victoryword

I actually have not, but I might put it on my FB page later.

But there is saying here in the USA. Something like "Being as legit as a three dollar bill" or something like that.

Phony as a 3 dollar bill. And Trump's version when referring to Hillary: "...she's crooked as a 3 dollar bill."

Don't believe it ? Check it out :

http://www.centralbankbahamas.com/bank_notes.php

A person I know shared only 2 days ago of praying for an unbeliever who could not lift his arms due to an injury. After prayer the man had a partial healing where he could lift his arms part way.

He prayed twice and each time his arms went higher but the man out of embarrassment stopped prayer for the 3rd time.
At a later date my friend saw the man and he had perfect movement of both arms and saw he was totally healed.

When my friend approached the man he immediately reacted and said.....I don't believe in that stuff. He knew exactly what to say when he saw my friend and obviously had hardened his heart to the point where he knew he was healed 100% but chose to attribute it to natural means.

This sadly is the condition of unsaved hearts.

The 3 positives:
My friends faith in stepping out and praying for an unbeliever in public
God is a kind God and heals people who still reject him
There is still hope that the man will later on repent as he recognises God did heal him

Not all sinners are like this and many will turn to Christ but this is a real reason why God's wrath cannot be ignored. The heart of man is indeed corrupt and evil.

I've talked to enough angry atheists to get the impression that if God had rearranged the stars in the sky to spell John 3:16 in a perfect font then some of them would have dismissed it. Some of them were experts at fronting valor in relation to such things, meaning that if God had done such and such then the person would allegedly have repented in dust and ashes. My impression after lengthy conversations was that it was typically a treasure at the end of the rainbow thing, meaning that it would literally never happen regardless of the situation. What happens when the Spirit convicts is a different matter but that was typically the default condition of the heart.

Physical miracles is one thing. They demonstrate power but the reaction can be that the person flees by hardening themselves and explaining away at will. A perception of who God, the worker of the miracle, is and what relation he wants, can be as important. Paul talks about presenting the gospel by a demonstration of power but also by a demonstration of Spirit and God is spirit. Relation is so much deeper than mere subjection to the one who demonstrates his power.

Some of those atheists had committed blasphemy against the Spirit previously and were literally beyond repentance, some were close to that state. Some were merely angry for various reasons. It was hard to tell who was who since they functioned as a community.

We really can't blame satan for our hard hearts and once we hear the gospel we are accountable.

When I first heard I rejected because I loved my sin but slowly the Holy Spirit began to wear me down with truth.
I realised I couldn't keep making excuses not to believe as in my heart I started to see the light of the gospel.

I was driving my car pondering ....out of the blue I had a strong thought which said....'If that car crossed the road and hit you and you died where would you go'....I didn't at that time recognise it was the Holy Spirit.

My hard heart rose up and I said to myself ...'I'm not that bad I wont go to hell if I died' and began to justify myself.

Once again a very strong thought with clear words came into my mind.....'If you died now you would go straight to hell'.
My hands gripped the steering wheel in terror as I contemplated those words.

My heart was wicked and I was trying to justify my life as acceptable to God but I was clearly under God's wrath. Satan had nothing to do with it.

I also realised it was Gods mercy and love that I had not died by accident or another means.
Yes God loved me and was extending mercy and grace and I eventually accepted Christ but I have no doubt in my sinful state I was under God's wrath and belonged to satan.

Because of the way I was saved I clearly see Gods wrath over my life because of my sinful lifestyle but because of what Jesus did on the cross and taking God's wrath for me I see Gods incredible patience by extending love and mercy until I came to salvation.