Thread: Mother God - Biblical Truth or Human Logic

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

The Jews were different because God revealed himself to Abraham as a monotheistic masculine God compared to the pagans around them who had false male and female gods.

Satan wants to pervert worship by bringing false male and female gods.

The Catholic Church has elevated Mary to a false god which is part of the feminisation of God

Mary ? Not quite but their doctrine produces Mary worshippers anyway since it is very close. Mary is an entirely different entity however, different to simply being confused about the gender of the actual God. Just like papa and sarayu are different gods from different religions.

Originally Posted by Cardinal TT

There are plenty of scriptures you can find that can make a doctrine out of Mother God - but is it TRUTH
There are now 'christians' who are embracing Mother God and using scripture to justify it

How do you refute so many scriptures which mention a feminine God?????
If God is indeed feminine then we should embrace saying Mother God... but we have to ask why didn't Jesus reveal this about God

I can't find where the man below embraces 'God the Mother' but there are other groups who do and use similar verses he uses below

He says: 'I don't in celebrating the feminine face of God (and sharing my experience of the same), think I'm going 'beyond the Bible.'

http://mikemorrell.org/2012/05/bibli...-in-scripture/


Sophia:First nine chapters of Proverbs focus on Wisdom

• Proverbs 4:13 she is your life, giver of life
• Proverbs 8:35 whoever finds me finds life
• Proverbs 8:15 decrees what is right
• Proverbs 8: 22 – 31 like Wisdom herself, before the foundation of the earth I was there. Wisdom comes from God, was created by God
• Wisdom 7:22 – 8:1 She is the fashioner of all things; 21 attributes which is the product of two perfect numbers 3 & 7. Wisdom is perfection multiplied by perfection. Intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, mobile, clear, unpolluted, distinct, invulnerable, loving good, keen, irresistible, beneficent, humane, steadfast, sure, free from anxiety, all powerful. Overseeing all, penetrating through all other intelligent spirits
• Wisdom 8:1 She orders all things
• Wisdom 7: 24 She pervades and penetrates all things
• Wisdom 7:27 She renews all things – renewable energy
• Wisdom 9:10 She shares the throne of God
• Wisdom 7:10 – 14 She's the source of all things new
• Sirach 1:1 – 8 It is God who knows wisdom and pours her forth upon the world
• Sirach 24: 1 – 27 Hymn of self-praise sung by Wisdom in which she describes herself, her origins, her relationship to God and the good things she does for human beings. She came from the mouth of God, she is God's word, breath, Spirit; as the spirit/wind that hovered over the waters of creation and as mist / steam that covered the earth at the beginning; she is universal, everywhere. Her image as a tree echoes Proverbs 8 – she strikes root among God's people. She feeds all who long for her. Her food is sweeter than honey. Her food is herself. All who eat of her will hunger still, who drink of her will thirst for more. One will never be able to get enough of what she offers. What she offers is life. She concludes her song with a promise similar to Proverbs 8:35 – 34 – those who obey her will not be shamed. Those who serve her will not fall short. I believe she is the personification of God's wisdom as the feminine archetype.

I'll just deal with this one as I'm not into long detailed discussion about this that have already been done. lol.

Wisdom is spoken of as a she in Proverbs because the contrast to wisdom is the 'adulterous woman' which isn't only meant literally but also at a type of the world's system and ways. So logically if wisdom is being contrasted to an evil woman, then wisdom is going to be referred to as a woman also. This is no way, shape or form speaks to the 'gender' of God. See how simple that was? :)

Originally Posted by fuego

I'll just deal with this one as I'm not into long detailed discussion about this that have already been done. lol.

Wisdom is spoken of as a she in Proverbs because the contrast to wisdom is the 'adulterous woman' which isn't only meant literally but also at a type of the world's system and ways. So logically if wisdom is being contrasted to an evil woman, then wisdom is going to be referred to as a woman also. This is no way, shape or form speaks to the 'gender' of God. See how simple that was? :)

Seems logical...if wisdom in other places is no longer a feminine noun...but it is...so the comparison is not the driver of the word. In almost all rendering in the OT and NT it is a feminine noun.


sophia

Pronunciation

so-fē'-ä (Key)

Part of Speech

feminine noun

Makes perfect sense since the HS is feminine noun in the OT and neutral in the NT and HS is the one who imparts wisdom to us...

Originally Posted by fuego

I'll just deal with this one as I'm not into long detailed discussion about this that have already been done. lol.

Wisdom is spoken of as a she in Proverbs because the contrast to wisdom is the 'adulterous woman' which isn't only meant literally but also at a type of the world's system and ways. So logically if wisdom is being contrasted to an evil woman, then wisdom is going to be referred to as a woman also. This is no way, shape or form speaks to the 'gender' of God. See how simple that was? :)

You've got a point. But the woman is used to personify something more than just an abstract, an excellent way or understanding :

Prov 8:22 “The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.

The adulterous woman has no counterpart description that sounds like that.

Isaiah 11:2 The Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord.

1 Cor 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—

Now compare the previous post to the following passage from earlier in Proverbs :

Proverbs 1:20 Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.

Prov 3:18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,
And happy are all who retain her.

It is quite clear that God doesn't object to speaking with a feminine voice since he speaks through the metaphor of a woman who embodies his spirit of wisdom. That doesn't mean that any part of him can be defined to have a corresponding gender. He is never "God, the female Wisdom". His actual titles and actual manifestations are far more weighty than mere metaphors used, whether those are masculine, feminine or gender neutral by nature.

What happens when the Holy Spirit displays his glory on and through a woman in whom Christ lives ? Does he speak with a male voice through a feminine person ? Nope, there clearly is no masculine gender being imposed so that the resulting image of Christ is disturbed by two different genders being present in that image. The Holy Spirit moves in symbiosis with the person he is in and on, with gender neutrality. He can consequently simply speak with and through the gender of the vessel involved.

1 Samuel 10:6 Then the Spirit of the Lord will come upon you, and you will prophesy with them and be turned into another man.

Samuel said that to king Saul. As was the case when the Spirit came upon OT heroes before him, he became a different man for the duration when God used him as a vessel for his Holy Spirit.

Joel 2:28 “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

The notion that the Spirit could also come upon women was perhaps a matter of going a bit further. There were female prophets in the OT but there is no specific mention of the Spirit being upon them though he must have been since they prophecied.

The really offensive part to a Jew of that time is however found in verse 29 where God's Spirit is said to come upon even the bondservants. Those would be seen as far less worthy of being used as vessels for God's Spirit than those who were free, whether kings like Saul or women of proper status.

Originally Posted by fuego

This is no way, shape or form speaks to the 'gender' of God. See how simple that was? :)

Brilliant


So why can't others get it like you ?

Actually the wisdom is discussed before there is any mention of an adulterous woman. The context of the discussion about the adulterous woman is simply adultery. The scope of the discussion on wisdom is far broader and she could as well be contrasted to all the discussions on the fool. The relation between the two women isn't strong.

Whichever way you look at it wisdom speaking as a woman means absolutely zero in regard to assigning gender to God.

Jesus referred to himself as a female hen