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Thread: Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

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    Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

    Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

    http://victoriouswordchurch.blogspot...to-betray.html

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    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    The first thing you do in that blog is to employ your own notion that foreknowledge implies predestination. It does not. Others, including myself, are fully capable of understanding how this works with their own minds. Not necessarily exhaustively but fully. Just because you don't, doesn't mean you should make a doctrine out of that and then go with Open Theism.

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    Spin the big wheel. If the arrow lands on a heart of pride or ambition then sincere congrats, you are the chosen one to betray Jesus !Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?-gawspw-jpg

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  7. #4
    It's not "either/or", but "and/both".

    Judas did exactly what he wanted.. and God had ordained it. Not forcing no robots.

    BOTH predestination and free will are clearly presented Biblically.

    We can't fathom HOW God does it.. but we don't have to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    It's not "either/or", but "and/both".

    Judas did exactly what he wanted.. and God had ordained it. Not forcing no robots.

    BOTH predestination and free will are clearly presented Biblically.

    We can't fathom HOW God does it.. but we don't have to.
    In my opinion the above is neither Calvinism nor is it logical. You are free to disagree on that.

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    why thank you for allowing me to disagree.

    I do not present myself as any kind of authority or representative of Calvinism/Reformed theology.

    All I know is, BOTH are presented.

    We can't reconcile it..

    we don't have to.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Femme* View Post
    why thank you for allowing me to disagree.

    I do not present myself as any kind of authority or representative of Calvinism/Reformed theology.

    All I know is, BOTH are presented.

    We can't reconcile it..

    we don't have to.
    Okay that sounds like what Scottae316 believes but I think he probably belongs towards the other side as compared to you. Closer to Arminianism. I don't believe that the doctrine of predestination of individuals to salvation or damnation has any merit. It is not a "great mystery" in my opinion.

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  15. #8
    The main point of the article seems to me to be that the references we find in the Gospels to the Scriptures being "fulfilled" do not necessarily indicate that those Scriptures therefore constituted prophecy. I agree. It is not only prophecy that can be said to be fulfilled. A type, for example, can also be said to be fulfilled. The "fulfillment" we find in the Gospels, especially in Matthew is often, as VW put it very well, "a matter of paralleling the past event recorded in Scripture with the event that was presently occurring."

    I do not believe God predestined or foreordained that Judas would betray Christ. If God foreknew it, that does not mean that Judas was therefore locked in to that action and that choice and was not free do choose or act otherwise. God's foreknowledge did not cause Judas to make that choice and betray Christ. If Judas had chosen to do otherwise, God would then have foreknown that instead.

    I believe that God knows everything that is knowable, when it is knowable. But the question I have these days is, How does God know what is knowable, and when does it become knowable? Is everything necessarily knowable ahead of time? When did Judas' choice actually become something knowable?

    I'm aware of the view that God is outside of time in such a way that he sees and knows everything that happens within time. I can accept that as a philosophical and theological point, but is that how the biblical authors understood God in relation to time -- or is it a later philosophical view that we have read into Scripture?

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    Isaiah 41:21 “Present your case,” says the Lord.
    “Set forth your arguments,” says Jacob’s King.
    22 “Tell us, you idols,
    what is going to happen.
    Tell us what the former things were,
    so that we may consider them
    and know their final outcome.
    Or declare to us the things to come,
    23 tell us what the future holds,
    so we may know that you are gods.

    Here God sets up foreknowledge of the future as a requirement for qualifiying as divine. What does that tell us about God himself ?

    I agree that God did not predestine Judas to betray Jesus, he did that of his own accord. God's foreknowledge depends upon Judas actual choice, not the other way around.

    The theological idea you mentioned about God being outside time relies on something deeper than that. The idea that God is ontologically prior to everything else, meaning that everything depends upon God and God depends on nothing else. Including time. It is difficult to visualize that God created time since the verb employs time in its definition (now it is not created, now it is created) but the notion that God is ontologically prior to time is more fundamental and doesn't rely on one's being able to visualize or grasp the mechanism involved with one's mind.

    If God is ontologically prior to time then he is per definition originally outside it. There is nothing to stop him from entering into time however, to interact with his creatures.

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    Judas fit the prophecy involved but did it specifically have to be Judas ? Maybe, maybe not. I think it was so in the nature of sinful mankind to persecute and kill Jesus that it was inevitable that someone would do something like that. One of the first things they did when Jesus started his ministry was to try to throw him off a cliff but he managed to get away. The devil found Judas and Judas accepted the task and became his betrayer.

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