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Thread: Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

  1. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Young's literal translation is one of the very few translations that translate aionios in general as age-enduring or similar. Which is the translation that theological Universalists insist on. The others are interpretative translations that attempt to simplify things for the reader.
    All translations are, to some degree, interpretive. All simply to a degree. Some over-simplify. Aionios has a range of uses, centered around an age or era or eon (you can hear "eon" in the word). The Greek word can be used of a long eon, a short eon, an indefinite eon, a succession of eons. There is nothing about the word itself that indicates eternity.

    The Jews recognized that there were several ages in the plan of God. And Paul speaks of "ages to come." But generally, they talked about this age (i.e., the present one) and the age to come (the age of the messianic kingdom -- the kingdom of God). I understand zoen aionion as the life of the age to come.

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  3. #72
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    You're confusing aion and aionios. Aion is a noun and can refer to an age or eternity. Aionios is an adjective and has eternal as its default meaning.

    At least Young's translation has "age-enduring" which can in turn be interpreted as eternal but doesn't have to be. It doesn't go as far as theological universalists do, to where it basically means "enduring for a longer or shorter period of time"

    Jesus interpreted eternal life in John 17:3 as knowing God, which is now and not only in the "next age".

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  5. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Now you really sound like you are influenced by godless students of the Bible. Scripture itself rejects your claim that the Bible authors had no concept of eternity (at both ends, as a matter of fact) :

    Heb 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever.
    And you have failed to carefully read what I said. I did not say that they had no sense of eternity. What as I was -- and I ask you to note carefully -- is that they had no sense of eternity as timelessness.

    I've had enough of your accusations. I do not read, follow or study godless students of the Bible. The theologians, Bible scholars and commentators I have read are not godless but Christians who affirm the divine inspiration, truth and authority of Scripture.

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  7. #74
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    And you have failed to carefully read what I said. I did not say that they had no sense of eternity. What as I was -- and I ask you to note carefully -- is that they had no sense of eternity as timelessness.

    I've had enough of your accusations. I do not read, follow or study godless students of the Bible. The theologians, Bible scholars and commentators I have read are not godless but Christians who affirm the divine inspiration, truth and authority of Scripture.
    In that case you are fairly difficult to comprehend. I seem to have missed the distinction about "timelessness", sorry about that then. Titus 1:2 has "before times eternal" which indicates something prior to time, at any rate. It could be a matter of promising eternal life before our creation and its time existed, meaning God was situated in a different existence with its own time.

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  9. #75
    I'm with Jeff. God experiences time adn sequential moments just like His creation. The Bible never teaches that God is outside of time or in an eternal now. That is a philosophical idea that seems to have taken such a strong root in people's minds that they refuse to dispense of it and would rather continue to have their made-up mysteries about God.

    God has made Himself known and pretty easily understood. It takes theologians to complicate Him.

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  11. #76
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Jesus became a human being through the incarnation and experienced our creation including our time just like we do. Thereby he was enabled to have compassion and mercy with us in every way. He will remain a human being for eternity.

    God the Father, who lives in a light that noone can enter, is not a human being. He is the creator, he is not part of creation. He transcends everything and can therefore experience and interact with everything as he chooses. He is limitless. God chose to incarnate a part of himself into our creation as a human being and interact with us even physically, and on our terms.

    We should thank him that he chose to humble himself down to our level rather than try to pull him down to our level per default as if he isn't placed high above us and out of reach, per default.

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  13. #77
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    I agree with Colonel's post below except the last paragraph.....the Father lives beyond the realm of creation. God in his omnipotence can do both. Before the creation of the universe and even the angels God lived in a realm totally his own.
    We have no concept or understanding of how the Godhead functioned and existed for countless ages in this realm so the best word to describe it would be eternity

    Once the creation started he then began manifesting himself into the realm of time

    I am not saying people have to agree with me but it suits my understanding of God and how he works in the affairs of men

    Added after Fuegos comment below
    I don't agree with Colonels last paragraph and agree with Fuego


    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Jesus became a human being through the incarnation and experienced our creation including our time just like we do. Thereby he was enabled to have compassion and mercy with us in every way. He will remain a human being for eternity.

    God the Father, who lives in a light that noone can enter, is not a human being. He is the creator, he is not part of creation. He transcends everything and can therefore experience and interact with everything as he chooses. He is limitless. God chose to incarnate a part of himself into our creation as a human being and interact with us even physically, and on our terms.

    We should thank him that he chose to humble himself down to our level rather than try to pull him down to our level per default as if he isn't placed high above us and out of reach, per default.
    Last edited by Cardinal TT; 09-02-2015 at 04:12 AM.

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  15. #78
    Well, I don't think anyone is trying to pull God down to human level in this thread. I just think some are asking questions and want scriptural answers rather than "because He wouldn't be God if (insert reason) wasn't so." There's a lot of that kind of answer to these kinds of questions from people. Not based on anything other that what attribute(s) the individual thinks God would need to have 'to be God' born out of their own preconceived notions about God not necessarily based on scripture.

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  17. #79
    The Bible never teaches that God is outside of time
    Creation does not supersede the creator.

    The Bible presents God as the creator of space/time.
    The creator MUST precede the creation.
    The creator had to exist before His creation.
    The creator therefore had to exist BEFORE space/time.

    Therefore He must be clearly OUTSIDE space/time.

    The creator is infinite
    Space/time is finite.
    Infinite MUST extend beyond finite.

    Therefore the infinite creator MUST be beyond the finite creation.


    God experiences time adn[sic] sequential moments just like His creation.
    The creator is not subject to the creation.
    Creation is subject to the creator.
    God can let physical laws run as He chooses
    or
    He can overrule those laws as He chooses.

    That is a philosophical idea
    Making a point by trying to pin a false label on something rather than presenting biblical evidence does nothing to provide justification for the claim.

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  19. #80
    Senior Member Cardinal TT's Avatar
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    IMO the biblical writers used words to reveal a God of eternity even though those words can be used to mean something else
    There is enough intent in the scriptures to convince me of God living in eternity.

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