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Thread: Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

    Literal Greek :

    apo chronos aionion

    before times eternal

    That is pretty much the same as saying that he promised that before time began (at least the time related to the creation that we are situated within). If he promised that after time began then it would be within "times eternal".
    Not apo but pro. Apo would mean more like "from" times eternal.

    "Before times eternal" is a legitimate way to translate it. Young's has it as "before times of ages." Wuest, "before eternal times." CEV has "Then they will have the hope of eternal life that God promised long ago." Lamsa has, "ages ago." Barnes, in his Bible commentary, understands it as before the secular times, not before time itself. Adam Clarke, in his commentary, understands it as before the foundation of the world, which he takes to mean the Jewish economy, the time before the law. Marvin Vincent, in his word studies, understands it, not as before time, but as "before time began to be reckoned by aeons." Robertson's Word Pictures takes it as "long ages ago."

    The point is not that there once was no time at all, and God made a promise in that state of timelessness. But, rather, that God made a promise a very long time ago.

    God made a promise about eternal life -- but to whom did he make it? Keener locates the recipient of the promise as the prophets from the beginning (IVP Bible Background Commentary). It was to human beings, within time, that the promise was made. That being so, then the point when the promise was made was not a point within some timeless state, which human beings do not inhabit, but a point within time. So pro chronos aionion would more naturally be understood within the context of verse 2 as a long time ago. A long time ago, God made a promise concerning eternal life to human beings -- within the realm of time.

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  3. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The passage doesn't say "tell us what you are going to do in the future".
    And he does not say, "Tell us everything that is going to happen in the future." The test is not about omniscience but about power and authority. So in verse 23, "Tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear." God himself has not told everything that is going to happen in the future.

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  5. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    Not apo but pro. Apo would mean more like "from" times eternal.

    "Before times eternal" is a legitimate way to translate it. Young's has it as "before times of ages." Wuest, "before eternal times." CEV has "Then they will have the hope of eternal life that God promised long ago." Lamsa has, "ages ago." Barnes, in his Bible commentary, understands it as before the secular times, not before time itself. Adam Clarke, in his commentary, understands it as before the foundation of the world, which he takes to mean the Jewish economy, the time before the law. Marvin Vincent, in his word studies, understands it, not as before time, but as "before time began to be reckoned by aeons." Robertson's Word Pictures takes it as "long ages ago."

    The point is not that there once was no time at all, and God made a promise in that state of timelessness. But, rather, that God made a promise a very long time ago.

    God made a promise about eternal life -- but to whom did he make it? Keener locates the recipient of the promise as the prophets from the beginning (IVP Bible Background Commentary). It was to human beings, within time, that the promise was made. That being so, then the point when the promise was made was not a point within some timeless state, which human beings do not inhabit, but a point within time. So pro chronos aionion would more naturally be understood within the context of verse 2 as a long time ago. A long time ago, God made a promise concerning eternal life to human beings -- within the realm of time.
    Interesting. Thanks!

    Honest question (for you or for the Colonel)

    Is there a simpler way to say "a long time ago" in Greek than pro chronos aionion?

    Or is that meaning you are going with kinda "squeezed" out of it?
    Last edited by GodismyJudge; 08-31-2015 at 10:54 PM.
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  7. #54
    Paul's understanding about "foreknowledge" and "predestination"?
    How do you believe Paul understood predestination? Without first clearly defining the term, discussing the issue is besides the point.

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  9. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by GodismyJudge View Post
    Interesting. Thanks!

    Honest question (for you or for the Colonel)

    Is there a simpler way to say "a long time ago" in Greek than pro chronos aionion?

    Or is that meaning you are going with kinda "squeezed" out of it?
    There are other ways of indicating "a long time ago." I don't know that there are ways that are necessarily simpler for Greek readers of speakers. Perhaps some idiomatic ways. In English, we have some idiomatic ways of saying things are simple for us to recognize but that might not seem very simple to people translating them into another language.

    In my post above, I have offered several reputable sources that take pro chronos eionion in the way I have suggested and which fits the context. No "squeezing" about it.

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by hansc View Post
    How do you believe Paul understood predestination? Without first clearly defining the term, discussing the issue is besides the point.
    In the case of "predestination," I don't think Paul had in mind that God predestined specific individuals to something but that God predestined a certain class of people to something, namely, that the class of people composed of those who believed on Christ would be saved. To talk about predestination in that way would not necessarily require that God would even have to know ahead of time exactly who would be in that class. God chose a plan in which whoever believed in Christ would be saved.

    In the case of "foreknowlege," I gave a couple of examples yesterday: Here is an interesting example of Paul's use of proginosko in Acts 26:4-5. "My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; which knew [proginosko] me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee." Paul is not attributing anything like divine foreknowledge to them, or even ancient foreknowledge. He simply means that they knew him from when he was young, which would have been only several decades.

    Now look at Romans 11:2. "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew [proginosko]." What does Paul intend from that -- that God knew them from before the creation of the world? Or is he using proginosko in a way similar to how he used it in his speech in Acts 26, without eternal foreknowledge in mind -- IOW, simply to make the point that God knew Israel from the time or her beginning?

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  13. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    There are other ways of indicating "a long time ago." I don't know that there are ways that are necessarily simpler for Greek readers of speakers. Perhaps some idiomatic ways. In English, we have some idiomatic ways of saying things are simple for us to recognize but that might not seem very simple to people translating them into another language.

    In my post above, I have offered several reputable sources that take pro chronos eionion in the way I have suggested and which fits the context. No "squeezing" about it.
    What I was getting at, was if there was a much easier way of saying something as simple as "a long time ago", without using the phrase pro chronos aionion, then it would make a difference as to why the Holy Spirit would use that phrase.

    That's all I was trying to find out.


    .
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  15. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by GodismyJudge View Post
    What I was getting at, was if there was a much easier way of saying something as simple as "a long time ago", without using the phrase pro chronos aionion, then it would make a difference as to why the Holy Spirit would use that phrase.

    That's all I was trying to find out.

    .
    If the meaning is essentially the same whether the author says it one way or another, I don't think the Holy Spirit necessarily has a preference. I don't subscribe to the "dictation" theory of Scripture, where the Holy Spirit dictates each and ever word and the author is merely a scribe who writes it down verbatim. I believe the Holy Spirit superintends the work so that it conveys the meaning the Spirit intends to convey, yet the voice, personality and inflection of the author show through.

    What makes you think that pro chronos aionion is not, in Greek, a simple way to convey the meaning, "a long time ago"? Do you suppose that if you take the Greek word for "long," the word for "time" and the word for "ago" (if there is one) and stick them all together then you would end up with a simple Greek phrase that translates as "a long time ago"? Translating from one language to another does not really work like that, not dependably. There are some Greek words that do not have a simple equivocal English word but may take a phrase of several English words to convey even just a partial sense. Then there are idiomatic expressions which, if translated word for word into another language, would sound unintelligible, but are perfectly and easily understood in their home language and culture.

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  17. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Quest View Post
    Personally I have never understood the dilemma of predestination and foreknowledge...He's God..
    Nor do I believe my thoughts on it are philosophical...

    God sent Moses to the Pharaoh that He already knew would respond the way he did so each time God challenged his authority he hardened his heart more...
    God used this propensity in Pharaoh to demonstrate His power and glory...Pharaoh was doomed because of his heart from the beginning...all he did was continue to seal that fate.

    Judas was doomed because of his heart from the beginning..all he did was continue to seal his fate with each temptation...being given the money bad despite being a thief..this fed his greed...God knew he would follow the desire of his heart all the way to the grave..

    It's just not that complicated...God chose them because He already KNEW how they would respond to His stimuli..

    Heidi Baker gave the keys to a car thief she brought in as an orphan...when he wrecked the jeep God told her to give him more keys...another had access to her purse and stole money from her often...she never said a word and left him to God. he is now one of her TEAM...honest and filled with love...
    Yeah.. God *knew* it would happen because He SAID He was going to MAKE it happen.

    If it's merely God had knowledge, it guts His prophetic. Makes Him a fancy schmancy fortune teller.

    God's prophecy matters because it's HIM doing it.

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

  19. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    If the meaning is essentially the same whether the author says it one way or another, I don't think the Holy Spirit necessarily has a preference. I don't subscribe to the "dictation" theory of Scripture, where the Holy Spirit dictates each and ever word and the author is merely a scribe who writes it down verbatim. I believe the Holy Spirit superintends the work so that it conveys the meaning the Spirit intends to convey, yet the voice, personality and inflection of the author show through.

    What makes you think that pro chronos aionion is not, in Greek, a simple way to convey the meaning, "a long time ago"? Do you suppose that if you take the Greek word for "long," the word for "time" and the word for "ago" (if there is one) and stick them all together then you would end up with a simple Greek phrase that translates as "a long time ago"? Translating from one language to another does not really work like that, not dependably. There are some Greek words that do not have a simple equivocal English word but may take a phrase of several English words to convey even just a partial sense. Then there are idiomatic expressions which, if translated word for word into another language, would sound unintelligible, but are perfectly and easily understood in their home language and culture.
    No, I don't suppose anything.

    What I want to know is that if Paul used an uncommon phrasing, then just maybe he had something else in mind than just a simple "long time ago".
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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    FresnoJoe (09-29-2015)

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