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Thread: Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by GodismyJudge View Post
    Ok I understand that.

    However that does not have anything to do with what we now "understand" about space/time.

    If a Super-massive physical object can warp space/time, I'm quite sure that the God Who created the Universe in which these objects reside is not susceptible to the constraints of Space/Time.

    I think that is what the basic problem boils down to.
    I understand that as a philosophical and theological point, and it may be quite true. I was taught that view since my youth group days and in Bible college. But it occurs to me that, although the Hebrews understood the creation of the world ex nihilo, they may not have viewed time as a created thing. And so the way the Hebrew Scriptures speak about God in relation to time was not meant to be viewed through the lens of Space-Time relativity, as if time itself were created. So I am looking for the biblical clues to how the Jews understood time.

    The Hebrew word translated as "everlasting" or "eternal" in the OT is olam. But it does not actually mean "everlasting." It has to do with an age or epoch -- IOW, periods of time. They could speak of an "age without end," but that does not mean they took it as an age without time.

    Likewise, the Greek word that gets translate in the NT as "eternal" or "everlasting," is aionion, and again, has to do with an age or epoch. So, zoen aionion (usually translated as "eternal life") is an age-enduring life (Young's Literal Translation has it as "life age-during") or the life of the age to come. Again, an age (or ages) may be without end, particularly when it has to do with God, but that does not necessarily mean, in the mind of the biblical authors, that it is without time.

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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    I understand that as a philosophical and theological point, and it may be quite true. I was taught that view since my youth group days and in Bible college. But it occurs to me that, although the Hebrews understood the creation of the world ex nihilo, they may not have viewed time as a created thing. And so the way the Hebrew Scriptures speak about God in relation to time was not meant to be viewed through the lens of Space-Time relativity, as if time itself were created. So I am looking for the biblical clues to how the Jews understood time.

    The Hebrew word translated as "everlasting" or "eternal" in the OT is olam. But it does not actually mean "everlasting." It has to do with an age or epoch -- IOW, periods of time. They could speak of an "age without end," but that does not mean they took it as an age without time.

    Likewise, the Greek word that gets translate in the NT as "eternal" or "everlasting," is aionion, and again, has to do with an age or epoch. So, zoen aionion (usually translated as "eternal life") is an age-enduring life (Young's Literal Translation has it as "life age-during") or the life of the age to come. Again, an age (or ages) may be without end, particularly when it has to do with God, but that does not necessarily mean, in the mind of the biblical authors, that it is without time.
    I like this...

    Ephesians 2 (Wuest)

    ...and raised us with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, in order that He might exhibit for His own glory in the ages that will pile themselves one upon another in continuous succession, the surpassing wealth of His grace in kindness to us in Christ Jesus.


    As for understanding what the Hebrew writers understood and meant is also very important, but we cannot "stop" there.

    I don't think that everything God is and can do is capable of being understood with the human mind alone. It takes spiritual revelation from God that comes primarily in and through the human spirit.

    I don't think that anything that the Hebrew writers wrote has any affect on known physical laws and principles.

    Seriously, Is God constrained by anything other than by His Own Will and Choice and Nature?
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by GodismyJudge View Post
    I like this...

    Ephesians 2 (Wuest)

    ...and raised us with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, in order that He might exhibit for His own glory in the ages that will pile themselves one upon another in continuous succession, the surpassing wealth of His grace in kindness to us in Christ Jesus.


    As for understanding what the Hebrew writers understood and meant is also very important, but we cannot "stop" there.

    I don't think that everything God is and can do is capable of being understood with the human mind alone. It takes spiritual revelation from God that comes primarily in and through the human spirit.

    I don't think that anything that the Hebrew writers wrote has any affect on known physical laws and principles.

    Seriously, Is God constrained by anything other than by His Own Will and Choice and Nature?
    Yes, ages piling themselves up in a continuous succession is terrific imagery.

    No, I don't think we need to stop with how the early Hebrew readers (or even the later Hebrew, early Church readers) understood things. But I do think we should take a full account of it and not immediately jump to modern science or systematic theology hundreds or thousands of years later.

    And I think we should be careful to recognize what we believe as a matter of science, or as a matter of philosophy, or as a matter of theology -- all of which are legitimate pursuits -- and what we believe as a matter of what the Biblical texts say.

    So I'm not question the capability of God, nor the Scriptures, nor the truth of the Scriptures. What I am questioning is a point or two of a systematic theology commonly held -- how well does it match up with the Scriptural evidence?

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  7. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    Yes, ages piling themselves up in a continuous succession is terrific imagery.

    No, I don't think we need to stop with how the early Hebrew readers (or even the later Hebrew, early Church readers) understood things. But I do think we should take a full account of it and not immediately jump to modern science or systematic theology hundreds or thousands of years later.

    And I think we should be careful to recognize what we believe as a matter of science, or as a matter of philosophy, or as a matter of theology -- all of which are legitimate pursuits -- and what we believe as a matter of what the Biblical texts say.

    So I'm not question the capability of God, nor the Scriptures, nor the truth of the Scriptures. What I am questioning is a point or two of a systematic theology commonly held -- how well does it match up with the Scriptural evidence?
    I understand your desire for clarity and accuracy, but it just seems to me like splitting hairs at this point.

    What evidence (Scriptural or otherwise) do you have for the position that God is subject to time?
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

    http://victoriouswordchurch.blogspot...to-betray.html
    Judas was chosen because GOD knew what he would do..

    Just like Pharaoh. God knew exactly how he would respond to the circumstances he would face...but He did not remove his ability to CHOOSE...

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  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by GodismyJudge View Post
    I understand your desire for clarity and accuracy, but it just seems to me like splitting hairs at this point.

    What evidence (Scriptural or otherwise) do you have for the position that God is subject to time?
    I have not said that God is subject to time, although I do believe that God, in his sovereignty, can choose to limit his interaction with us to the realm of time. Has he done so? I don't know, but I think it is possible.

    But the question I have is not whether God is subject to time, or even whether he has voluntarily subjected himself to time. What I am probing is how the biblical authors understood God in relation to time. Does, for example, the way our systematic theologies speak about "foreknowledge" and "predestination" (both indicating something about prior time) properly reflect Paul's understanding about "foreknowledge" and "predestination"?

    It may seem like splitting hairs to you, but I am simply seeking to understand Scripture on its own terms concerning these things. So I am no longer willing to just sit down and accept some systematic, theological, scientific or philosophical answer that has been offered. If questioning those things seems tedious, then so be it.

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  13. #37
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    Personally I have never understood the dilemma of predestination and foreknowledge...He's God..
    Nor do I believe my thoughts on it are philosophical...

    God sent Moses to the Pharaoh that He already knew would respond the way he did so each time God challenged his authority he hardened his heart more...
    God used this propensity in Pharaoh to demonstrate His power and glory...Pharaoh was doomed because of his heart from the beginning...all he did was continue to seal that fate.

    Judas was doomed because of his heart from the beginning..all he did was continue to seal his fate with each temptation...being given the money bad despite being a thief..this fed his greed...God knew he would follow the desire of his heart all the way to the grave..

    It's just not that complicated...God chose them because He already KNEW how they would respond to His stimuli..

    Heidi Baker gave the keys to a car thief she brought in as an orphan...when he wrecked the jeep God told her to give him more keys...another had access to her purse and stole money from her often...she never said a word and left him to God. he is now one of her TEAM...honest and filled with love...

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  15. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    I have not said that God is subject to time, although I do believe that God, in his sovereignty, can choose to limit his interaction with us to the realm of time. Has he done so? I don't know, but I think it is possible.

    But the question I have is not whether God is subject to time, or even whether he has voluntarily subjected himself to time. What I am probing is how the biblical authors understood God in relation to time. Does, for example, the way our systematic theologies speak about "foreknowledge" and "predestination" (both indicating something about prior time) properly reflect Paul's understanding about "foreknowledge" and "predestination"?

    It may seem like splitting hairs to you, but I am simply seeking to understand Scripture on its own terms concerning these things. So I am no longer willing to just sit down and accept some systematic, theological, scientific or philosophical answer that has been offered. If questioning those things seems tedious, then so be it.
    That is a good and worthy aim.

    You are "...probing is how the biblical authors understood God in relation to time."

    But, I think you are either missing my point or don't care to consider it relevant.

    Anybody can go overboard with anything.

    Ecclesiastes 12:10-14
    (10) The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
    (11) The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
    (12) And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
    (13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    (14) For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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  17. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by GodismyJudge View Post
    That is a good and worthy aim.

    You are "...probing is how the biblical authors understood God in relation to time."

    But, I think you are either missing my point or don't care to consider it relevant.

    Anybody can go overboard with anything.

    Ecclesiastes 12:10-14
    (10) The preacher sought to find out acceptable words: and that which was written was upright, even words of truth.
    (11) The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.
    (12) And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.
    (13) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
    (14) For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
    For upwards of forty years, I accepted the systematic theology view, and the proof texts they offered concerning this, and did not bother much to investigate. Perhaps there was a time for simply accepting it, and that was that time. And perhaps there is a time for taking another, closer look. And perhaps, now that I am a breath away from 60, this is the time for investigating that. I am not suggesting that you do anything about it, or that you need to take a closer look yourself. I am simply following what I believe is time for me to do. If that seems overboard, then perhaps there is a time to be overboard about something after being idle about it for so long.

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  19. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    For upwards of forty years, I accepted the systematic theology view, and the proof texts they offered concerning this, and did not bother much to investigate. Perhaps there was a time for simply accepting it, and that was that time. And perhaps there is a time for taking another, closer look. And perhaps, now that I am a breath away from 60, this is the time for investigating that. I am not suggesting that you do anything about it, or that you need to take a closer look yourself. I am simply following what I believe is time for me to do. If that seems overboard, then perhaps there is a time to be overboard about something after being idle about it for so long.
    Kind of like what you did with Annihilationism?

    This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity (futility) of their mind, having the understanding darkened...
    (Ephesians 4:17-18)

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly...
    (Psalm 1)

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