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Thread: Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Judas fit the prophecy involved but did it specifically have to be Judas ? Maybe, maybe not. I think it was so in the nature of sinful mankind to persecute and kill Jesus that it was inevitable that someone would do something like that. One of the first things they did when Jesus started his ministry was to try to throw him off a cliff but he managed to get away. The devil found Judas and Judas accepted the task and became his betrayer.
    I'm not sure there was a prophecy for Judas to fit, although there was a least a pattern for him to fit (which I think was VW's point). And I'm not sure that Judas was the only who could fit that pattern. There were several who wanted to get rid of Jesus, even by death. And there is no wonder why this was so: Jesus came announcing the kingdom of God and identified himself as the King -- and that severely rattled the cages of the religious establishment. John 1:11 says that Jesus "came to his own, and his own did not receive him." There were many of "his own" who rejected him, man who cried for him to be crucified.

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    I'm not sure there was a prophecy for Judas to fit, although there was a least a pattern for him to fit (which I think was VW's point). And I'm not sure that Judas was the only who could fit that pattern. There were several who wanted to get rid of Jesus, even by death. And there is no wonder why this was so: Jesus came announcing the kingdom of God and identified himself as the King -- and that severely rattled the cages of the religious establishment. John 1:11 says that Jesus "came to his own, and his own did not receive him." There were many of "his own" who rejected him, man who cried for him to be crucified.
    There are other prophecies that are made to relate specifically to Judas' manner of death that wouldn't simply fit whoever would take on the role of betraying Jesus.

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  5. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Isaiah 41:21 “Present your case,” says the Lord.
    “Set forth your arguments,” says Jacob’s King.
    22 “Tell us, you idols,
    what is going to happen.
    Tell us what the former things were,
    so that we may consider them
    and know their final outcome.
    Or declare to us the things to come,
    23 tell us what the future holds,
    so we may know that you are gods.

    Here God sets up foreknowledge of the future as a requirement for qualifiying as divine. What does that tell us about God himself ?

    I agree that God did not predestine Judas to betray Jesus, he did that of his own accord. God's foreknowledge depends upon Judas actual choice, not the other way around.

    The theological idea you mentioned about God being outside time relies on something deeper than that. The idea that God is ontologically prior to everything else, meaning that everything depends upon God and God depends on nothing else. Including time. It is difficult to visualize that God created time since the verb employs time in its definition (now it is not created, now it is created) but the notion that God is ontologically prior to time is more fundamental and doesn't rely on one's being able to visualize or grasp the mechanism involved with one's mind.

    If God is ontologically prior to time then he is per definition originally outside it. There is nothing to stop him from entering into time however, to interact with his creatures.
    I do not suggest there is nothing about the future that is knowable. I am wondering whether everything about the future is necessarily knowable. God can certainly know what he is going to do in the future, and when they came to pass, that would be sufficient to fulfill the test we find in Isaiah 41 (which was not a requirement that God tell them everything single thing that was going to happen ever after). So Isaiah 41 is not an indication that every single thing that happens in the future must therefore necessarily be knowable.

    Today, we understand that relationship between time and space, so that the creation of the cosmos includes the creation of time. But is that how the Hebrew authors of the OT understand creation. Did they understand time as a creation, and view God as having existence outside of time? Or when Luke or Paul or Peter spoke about foreknowledge , were they thinking of God as outside of time and therefore able to know the future in that way?

    I think many Christians have been accustomed to reading Paul's reference to foreknowledge through a later philosophy instead of exegeting the text.

    Here is an interesting example of Paul's use of proginosko in Acts 26:4-5. "My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; which knew [proginosko] me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee." Paul is not attributing anything like divine foreknowledge to them, or even ancient foreknowledge. He simply means that they knew him from when he was young, which would have been only several decades.

    Now look at Romans 11:2. "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew [proginosko]." What does Paul intend from that -- that God knew them from before the creation of the world? Or is he using proginosko in a way similar to how he used it in his speech in Acts 26, without eternal foreknowledge in mind -- IOW, simply to make the point that God knew Israel from the time or her beginning?

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  7. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    There are other prophecies that are made to relate specifically to Judas' manner of death that wouldn't simply fit whoever would take on the role of betraying Jesus.
    Which prophecies are those?

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  9. #15
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    Acts 1:15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters,[d] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”
    18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
    20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:
    “‘May his place be deserted;
    let there be no one to dwell in it,’[e]
    and,
    “‘May another take his place of leadership.’[f]


    Mat 27:1 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.
    3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”
    “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”
    5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
    6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

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  11. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    I do not suggest there is nothing about the future that is knowable. I am wondering whether everything about the future is necessarily knowable. God can certainly know what he is going to do in the future, and when they came to pass, that would be sufficient to fulfill the test we find in Isaiah 41 (which was not a requirement that God tell them everything single thing that was going to happen ever after). So Isaiah 41 is not an indication that every single thing that happens in the future must therefore necessarily be knowable.

    Today, we understand that relationship between time and space, so that the creation of the cosmos includes the creation of time. But is that how the Hebrew authors of the OT understand creation. Did they understand time as a creation, and view God as having existence outside of time? Or when Luke or Paul or Peter spoke about foreknowledge , were they thinking of God as outside of time and therefore able to know the future in that way?

    I think many Christians have been accustomed to reading Paul's reference to foreknowledge through a later philosophy instead of exegeting the text.

    Here is an interesting example of Paul's use of proginosko in Acts 26:4-5. "My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; which knew [proginosko] me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee." Paul is not attributing anything like divine foreknowledge to them, or even ancient foreknowledge. He simply means that they knew him from when he was young, which would have been only several decades.

    Now look at Romans 11:2. "God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew [proginosko]." What does Paul intend from that -- that God knew them from before the creation of the world? Or is he using proginosko in a way similar to how he used it in his speech in Acts 26, without eternal foreknowledge in mind -- IOW, simply to make the point that God knew Israel from the time or her beginning?
    The Bible authors knowing by divine revelation that God foreknows the future doesn't require that they had any understanding of how that actually works. God who gave that revelation does, that is enough.

    In general, I'd say God is a God of all ability. There is nothing that he cannot master, including time and its secrets. What he chooses to do or not do with his abilities, is a different matter. I don't need to understand how it all works to come up with that idea.

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  13. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    Acts 1:15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a group numbering about a hundred and twenty) 16 and said, “Brothers and sisters,[d] the Scripture had to be fulfilled in which the Holy Spirit spoke long ago through David concerning Judas, who served as guide for those who arrested Jesus. 17 He was one of our number and shared in our ministry.”
    18 (With the payment he received for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. 19 Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)
    20 “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms:
    “‘May his place be deserted;
    let there be no one to dwell in it,’[e]
    and,
    “‘May another take his place of leadership.’[f]


    Mat 27:1 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor.
    3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”
    “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”
    5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.
    6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”
    The Scripture Peter quotes is Psalm 69:25, "May their place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in their tents." And Psalm 109:8, "May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership." Are those verses actually prophecies about Judas, foretelling his destiny? A contextual reading of those psalms would not indicate so. Or was Peter seeing in them a pattern that was fitting in regard to Judas?

    Likewise, in Matthew 27:8, about 30 pieces of silver. That is not found in the book of Jeremiah, but similar words are found in Zechariah 11:12-13, "I told them, 'If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.' So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said to me, 'Throw it to the potter' -- the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the LORD."

    Was Zechariah actually predicting what Judas would do? A contextual reading would indicate that it as about Zechariah.
    Matthew may have simply been seeing a pattern that fit the situation of Judas? The word "fulfilled" (Gr., pleroo) does not necessarily indicate a prophecy. A type can have a fulfillment, and so can a pattern. I think VW's point hold us pretty well.



    I think those examples may simply demonstrate VW's point.

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  15. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Colonel View Post
    The Bible authors knowing by divine revelation that God foreknows the future doesn't require that they had any understanding of how that actually works. God who gave that revelation does, that is enough.

    In general, I'd say God is a God of all ability. There is nothing that he cannot master, including time and its secrets. What he chooses to do or not do with his abilities, is a different matter. I don't need to understand how it all works to come up with that idea.
    You are right -- the authors, writing by divine revelation about God's foreknowledge does require any understanding of how that actually works. But to understand what they have to say about God's foreknowledge is a matter of interpretation (any time we attempt to think about and say what a passage means, we are engaging in interpretation). So it is always appropriate to consider both the understanding of the author and of his audience. What did they understand it to mean, and what did they understand it to include. Did they think that everything about the future was knowable? It's fine to have a philosophical theology about God and the cosmos and time. And it's fine to gather a bunch of passages and wook them all together into a systematic theology. But that does not take the place of exegesis, or of considering what the biblical authors meant by what they said as they said it. Sometimes we have to go back and question our philosophical and systematic theology and take a closer look at the Scriptures, what they say -- and what don't say.

    Yes, God is a God of all ability. But he can't make a rock so big he can't lift it. He can't make a four-sided triangle. It may be that a thing that does not actually exist, a choice that has not actually been made, an act that has not actually been committed, is not actually knowable. I gladly affirm that God knows everything that is actually knowable.

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  17. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by victoryword View Post
    Did God Predestine Judas to Betray Christ?

    http://victoriouswordchurch.blogspot...to-betray.html
    So we can be on the same page, what to you does the word "predestine" means? I think we have to be real clear on the terms before we can evaluate their actions.

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  19. #20
    Senior Member Colonel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeffDoles View Post
    The Scripture Peter quotes is Psalm 69:25, "May their place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in their tents." And Psalm 109:8, "May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership." Are those verses actually prophecies about Judas, foretelling his destiny? A contextual reading of those psalms would not indicate so. Or was Peter seeing in them a pattern that was fitting in regard to Judas?

    Likewise, in Matthew 27:8, about 30 pieces of silver. That is not found in the book of Jeremiah, but similar words are found in Zechariah 11:12-13, "I told them, 'If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.' So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said to me, 'Throw it to the potter' -- the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the LORD."

    Was Zechariah actually predicting what Judas would do? A contextual reading would indicate that it as about Zechariah.
    Matthew may have simply been seeing a pattern that fit the situation of Judas? The word "fulfilled" (Gr., pleroo) does not necessarily indicate a prophecy. A type can have a fulfillment, and so can a pattern. I think VW's point hold us pretty well.



    I think those examples may simply demonstrate VW's point.
    You're basically saying that Peter merely applied some or other out-of-context verse to Judas.

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